Ukraine outrage and analysis.

[TSherbs]

I see. No expertise in foreign affairs, military strategy, etc. But he sure is fond of conspiracy theories, not fond of equal rights for gays, and he can be a whiner.

Check.

[Chip]

As Dr. H. S. Thompson wrote:

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

[Rin Tin Pen]

[FONT=Book Antiqua]The Problem With Russia Is Russia

[SIZE=3]By Oksana Zabuzhko
Feb. 20, 2023

Ms. Zabuzhko is a Ukrainian novelist, poet and essayist.

KRAKOW, Poland — One year ago this Tuesday.....

Yes, it is easy to see that Ms. Zabuzhko's forte is fiction.

[TSherbs]

Here is a column posted just today in WaPo by the ex-leader of the US Army Europe. Maybe he is wrong. But he is convinced that unless things radically change (whoch he does not expect will happen), Russia will not achieve their goals:

gifted WaPo article

[TSherbs]

What is the range of numbers reported by other sources?

Rin Tin?

[Chip]

Yes, it is easy to see that Ms. Zabuzhko's forte is fiction.

At least she has a genuine talent. Your specialties are misinformation, disinformation, lies, and propaganda, none of which originates with you.

[Chip]

It's starting to look like a power struggle: Prigozhin vs. Putin and the Russian Army command.

Boss of Wagner mercenary group accuses Russian army chiefs of ‘treason’

Yevgeny Prigozhin says Moscow is refusing to supply the group with munitions and other supplies in Ukraine

Guardian staff and agencies
Tue 21 Feb 2023

The head of Russia’s Wagner mercenary group has said Moscow’s military chiefs are refusing to supply the group with munitions and are seeking to destroy it, accusing them of “treason,” in an escalation of the war of words between senior Russian officials and the private army boss.

Yevgeny Prigozhin’s mercenary force, which has recruited from prisons across Russia to bolster its ranks, is playing a key role in the efforts to capture the city of Bakhmut in Ukraine’s east. The battle has exposed tensions between the Wagner group and the Russian army, though the Kremlin denies any rift.

“[Moscow’s] chief of general staff and the defence minister give out orders left and right not only to not give ammunition to PMC Wagner, but also to not help it with air transport,” Prigozhin said in a voice message shared by his press service on Tuesday.

Prigozhin also accused the military high command of having prohibited the delivery of shovels for Wagner fighters to dig trenches.

In the past, Prigozhin has criticised Russia’s regular army in Ukraine and recently slammed Moscow’s “monstrous bureaucracy” for slowing military gains. He has also accused the Russian military of attempting to “steal” victories from Wagner.

Russia’s defence ministry denied limiting ammunition shipments to volunteers at the front, but made no mention of the Wagner group private army or of Prigozhin’s accusations.

“All requests for ammunition for assault units are met as soon as possible,” it insisted, promising new deliveries on Saturday and denouncing as “absolutely false” reports of shortages. “Attempts to create a split within the close mechanism of interaction and support between units of the Russian [fighting] groups are counter-productive and work solely to the benefit of the enemy,” the statement read.

Prigozhin has assumed a more public role since the war started. His Wagner group spearheaded the battle for Bakhmut but his relations with Moscow are clearly deteriorating. This year Prigozhin was stripped of the right to recruit prisoners and there have been some signs of a Kremlin move to curb his influence.

After the Russian defence ministry rejected his initial accusations on Tuesday, Prigozhin released a voice message saying this was “nothing more than simply spitting at Wagner,” reiterating that his men were very short of supplies.

In his state of the nation speech delivered on Tuesday, Putin seemed to address the infighting. “We must get rid of … any interdepartmental contradictions, formalities, grudges, misunderstandings, and other nonsense,” he told the political and military elite.

In a post later in the day, Prigozhin said he had been too busy to watch the speech and could therefore not comment on the president’s remarks.

Reuters and Agence France-Presse contributed to this report

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e_iOSApp_Other

[TSherbs]

All is not quiet on the Russian front

[karmachanic]

What? The gas station that's masquerading as a country?

[karmachanic]

Ooopps Stoltenburg says the quiet part out loud

[TSherbs]

Ooopps Stoltenburg says the quiet part out loud

Everybody knows this. What is your point with it? Russia invaded and took Crimea in February 2014. This was a violation of international law, the UN condemned it, etc. Russia kicked out of G8, etc.

Is your point that what the West did in response to this international crime is responsible for more war crimes and Russian aggression?

[karmachanic]

Russia invaded and took Crimea in February 2014.

You need to get out more often. See what the other 80% of the world's up to.

[TSherbs]

what?

I asked a fair question: what is the point of your post (which links to a Twitter post)? We know that the US has helped Ukraine. That is a very public fact. I am asking you what your larger point is with that fact.

[welch]

Russia invaded and took Crimea in February 2014.

You need to get out more often. See what the other 80% of the world's up to.

It appears that Russia is up to genocide. Here is what Putin and his puppets say. This article collects many, many quotations in which they insist that Ukraine must be "eliminated" and the Ukrainian people must be killed, or sent to re-education camps. One or two eaxamples

Chairman of the State Duma Vyacheslav Volodin – Telegram posts by Volodin – Telegram (March 15 – Oct. 13, 2022)
“In the end, everyone should come to the realization that we have one country, and we are obliged to defend it. And there shouldn’t be another!” (March 15)
“Ukraine has lost its sovereignty and is on the verge of self-disintegration.” (July 21)
“If the attacks by the Kyiv regime continue, the response will be even tougher. All organizers and perpetrators of terrorist attacks must be found. Those who resist are destroyed.” (Oct. 13)

“Deep Ukrainianism” is a fictional concept “fueled by anti-Russian poison and an all-consuming lie about its identity, is one big fake. This phenomenon has never happened in history. And it doesn’t exist now.” (April 5, 2022)
Ukraine will “suffer its own fate” after having “mentally transformed into the Third Reich, having written down the names of Jews and Nazi henchmen into history books. This is its path, of such Ukraine.” (April 5, 2022)
Russia’s “most important goal” is to “change the bloody and full of false myths consciousness of a part of today’s Ukrainians.” (April 5, 2022)
“History will put everything in its place and show which side the truth is on. Who became the custodian of true Christian values, protecting them from atheists, bandits, and nationalists.” (April 27, 2022)

“What’s happening in Ukraine won’t stay in Ukraine. A holy war is underway. We’re fighting for the right of mankind to live in its original state, as designed by the Creator. Those [Ukrainian] fools who are trying to fight – they aren’t fighting against us, they’re at war with God. In case of their victory, their end is certain. When I say that either we win, or the whole world will be reduced to ashes, this also has another meaning. How can humanity that fights against God continue to exist? … If you think about what’s happening, it’s Satanism. They’re purely demonic, you can’t put it any other way. We have to understand: games are over since we’re dealing with servants of the Prince of Darkness, since we’re dealing with a diabolical origin, what kind of negotiations could there be? Who are we talking to? What kind of negotiations could you have with Satan?” … The new Sodom and Gomorrah await the Lord’s judgment.” (Dec. 17, translated by media monitor Julia Davis)

Opponents of “Letter Z” must “‘understand that if they are counting on mercy, no, there will be no mercy for them. It all became very serious. In this case it means concentration camps, re-education, sterilization.’”

https://www.justsecurity.org/81789/r...FqszaT4mneNrPA

[TSherbs]

He's posting on Telegram? Is that where his followers are, or something?

[karmachanic]

what?

I asked a fair question: what is the point of your post (which links to a Twitter post)? We know that the US has helped Ukraine. That is a very public fact. I am asking you what your larger point is with that fact.

Not liking or not agreeing with something does not make it false. US comprises 4.25% of the world's population. It would be beneficial to take the views of the rest of the world into consideration. Majority of them are not singing the same song.

https://fournier.substack.com/p/ten-...-about-ukraine

[TSherbs]

what?

I asked a fair question: what is the point of your post (which links to a Twitter post)? We know that the US has helped Ukraine. That is a very public fact. I am asking you what your larger point is with that fact.

[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3]Not liking or not agreeing with something does not make it false.

What??

You are hard to follow. I did not call anything false. I don't know what you are referring to

So let me ask again, what point are you making with the fact that the US has aided Ukraine since 2014? I simply wondering if you would do me the favor of simply spelling out in a sentence or two what your point is.

[karmachanic]

the fact that the US has aided Ukraine since 2014

Guess you didn't read the link?

[TSherbs]

the fact that the US has aided Ukraine since 2014

Guess you didn't read the link?

I read and browsed it nearly entirely, even before my last post. You did not say you agreed with the post, disagreed with the post, agreed with half of the post, etc, etc. Are you Dan Fournier, the author of that blog post? Might you identify, even, in your own words what the thesis of that document is? No one knows how you are digesting that piece unless you actually say so in your own words. The "Conclusion" of the piece may not even be what you think its main point is for you in this discussion.

If you don't feel like making a statement *yourself,* just say so.

If it helps you at all, the only thesis claim I can recall you making in these threads is that Americans need to broaden their perspective. Granted. Certainly so do the Russians. I would never deny this claim, if that is all you are saying. But not all persepectives are equally rational nor equally justified legally, historically, morally. Will we discuss this in greater depth, or will we not?

[welch]

Putin shouts "Long live death!

By Valerie HopkinsPhotographs by Nanna Heitmann
Feb. 22, 2023

MOSCOW — It was one of the biggest public celebrations of the war that Russia has seen since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine — an overflow crowd at the country’s largest stadium, cheering images of destruction and songs about spilling blood and conquering Ukraine.

Formally, the event was tied to Russia’s annual Defenders of the Fatherland holiday, honoring veterans, but coming two days before the anniversary of the invasion, it served as a televised show of popular support for the war, the armed forces waging it and the man behind it, President Vladimir V. Putin.

“I love it!” said Aleksandr, 47, a lawyer from Moscow, who was waving a flag high up in the stands while a performer rapped about the Ukrainian territories Mr. Putin claimed to have annexed last year. “I don’t understand how can I not support it,” he said of a war that the Kremlin forbids people to call a war, referring to it as a “special military operation.”

Tickets were not available for purchase, but distributed mostly to state employees and students, who were given the day off from work or studies and provided with round-trip transport.

The highly choreographed concert and rally romanticized Russia’s military and the war; while performers sang, the screens throughout the stadium did not show them, but instead played videos of soldiers fighting and firing heavy weapons, and destroyed buildings. Next to the entrance to the stadium, volunteers sewed camouflage nets.

In uniform, First Lt. Nikolai Romanenko performed a rap “remix” featuring the popular World War II song “Katyusha,” with updated lyrics including, “I’m not afraid to stain my hands in blood up to the elbow.”

Another person performed a rap-ballad about “demons buried in Azovstal,” the Ukrainian fighters who held out for weeks in a steel plant in Mariupol, including lyrics in Ukrainian, with a video mocking the Ukrainian women who pleaded for the evacuation of their husbands, sons and brothers.

Grigory Leps, one of Russia’s best-known pop singers, sang a song fusing the Second World War recruitment slogan “Homeland: Mother Is calling” with the contemporary pro-war refrain “We don’t abandon our own.”

In all, the celebration at Luzhniki Stadium reflected the Kremlin’s campaign to normalize the war for the Russian populace, a tacit recognition that it will not end any time soon. The event even featured some acknowledgment of Russian casualties, though not their enormous scale.

“They’re trying to militarize the whole society,” said Grigory B. Yudin, a political philosophy professor at the Moscow School of Social and Economic Sciences, who did not attend the event.

Tickets were free, distributed mostly to state employees and students, who were given the day off from work or studies and provided with round-trip transportation. Matvey, 19, a university student from the city of Tambov, said several buses from two universities there had traveled more than eight hours each way to the concert. Several attendees from the Moscow region said they had been encouraged by their employers to go.

“People were bused there, forced to attend; we have reports of that from multiple universities” said Professor Yudin.

“Putin coerces people, lures them into participating, and these students are promised free passes on exams,” he continued. “He wants both the total mobilization of the country and the total passivity, a total acceptance,” an approach he described as “schizophrenic.”

The 81,000-seat stadium appeared more than full despite temperatures far below freezing, with people in the aisles and on the field, and thousands more on the grounds outside. And for many of them — at least those willing to speak with an American journalist — the enthusiasm seemed genuine, even if they have been touched by the war’s losses.

“I support it, yes, because it was high time to start this,” Katya, 26, who works for an aesthetic medicine clinic in the Moscow region, said of the war. She cited what she called the suffering of many friends from the Donetsk region of Ukraine, where Moscow’s separatist proxies began fighting Kyiv eight years before Russia’s full-scale invasion last year.

But Katya admitted that she wished the war had ended already, and said one of her university classmates had been killed. It is a sensitive topic — any criticism of the war can result in a prison sentence — and she, like some others interviewed, declined to give her surname.

“I don’t understand why it’s become so drawn out,” she said. “It’s a pity: Everyone in their families already has at least some acquaintances who died.”

Despite her support for the war, she voiced some surprise at the enthusiasm around her on Wednesday, tacitly acknowledging how artificial such public displays can be.

“What impressed me the most was that I could see people were genuinely coming, not coerced,” she said. “I also came here willingly myself.”

Her husband, Stanislav, 31, had received tickets to the event from his job, and said he was glad he had come. “It was very emotional,” he said.

Concert M.C.s shared stories about some of the Russian soldiers fighting and falling in Ukraine and invited their relatives onstage. The Kremlin has not conceded the scale of Russian casualties — about 200,000 killed or wounded, Western officials say — and has generally avoided releasing the names of the dead.

Boris I. Lugin spoke of his son Anatoly’s death in battle. “Our task is to do everything to win: Every beat of our heart for victory, every beat,” he told the crowd. “This is how I live my life. A soldier’s father.”

A children’s choir sang a song, “Greetings Soldier,” written as a message to troops at the front, in the mold of the letters Russian schoolchildren have been asked to write as homework.

Another group of children from occupied Mariupol were brought to the stage, along with a soldier named Yuri L. Gagarin, code name “Angel,” who was introduced as having saved 367 children from the devastated city — though how he did so was not explained. As images of the destruction played on the screen, without addressing the Russian bombardment that had leveled much of the city — small children onstage covered their ears.

Ukraine and rights groups say that Russia has stolen thousands of children from occupied territory and has killed countless civilians in Mariupol and elsewhere. But no one onstage asked about these children’s parents. One M.C. encouraged the children to hug Mr. Gagarin, who was decorated with an “Order of Courage” for his army service, in thanks.

“These are our children, and we, the Russian Army, must protect these people and these children,” said Mr. Gagarin, whose name echoes that of the first person in space, Yuri A. Gagarin, a hero to many Russians. “We are a strong army; we are a powerful army. But your support is important to us. We’re together; we’re going to win.”

It was the same message delivered by every speaker at the event: Social unity and support for the troops from all strata of society are essential.

Mr. Putin made a brief appearance, acknowledging the dissonance that people were “gathered for a festive event” while soldiers were fighting and dying, and encouraged all Russians to join the war effort.

“Even children who write letters to our fighters at the front are very important,” he said. “All our people are Defenders of the Fatherland.”

Anna Vasilyevna, 87, who had come to the concert from Solnechnogorsk, 45 miles from Moscow, said her father died fighting in World War II. She completely supported Mr. Putin, because “now everything is the same as it was back then,” she said, echoing the Kremlin’s propaganda equating Russia’s invasion of Ukraine with Soviets fighting Nazis.

As she left the stadium, she passed an exhibit of “Heroes and Acts of Bravery.” On one side of the panels were heroes from World War II. On another, pictures and descriptions of those who died invading Ukraine.

“And now we have the same heroes,” she said.

Alina Lobzina contributed reporting from London, and Ivan Nechepurenko from Tbilisi, Georgia.

Valerie Hopkins is an international correspondent for The Times, covering the war in Ukraine, as well as Russia and the countries of the former Soviet Union.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/22/w...er_new_arm_5_1