Page 2 of 35 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 689

Thread: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

  1. #21
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,630
    Thanks
    3,597
    Thanked 1,043 Times in 637 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Also, I found this ≈30 minute video pretty good at summarizing many of the reasons for the invasion.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,118
    Thanks
    874
    Thanked 2,528 Times in 1,299 Posts
    Rep Power
    13

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    If the news reports are true regarding the use of cluster bombs and vacuum bombs, what is the response from the West? Is this the excuse to get physically involved?

    Also, if Ukraine's application to the EU is fast-tracked or rubber stamped, does that mean that NATO will have to step in on the ground?

    It's all very confusing from this far away (apart from understanding that Putin is a criminal).

  3. #23
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,001
    Thanks
    2,403
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    If the news reports are true regarding the use of cluster bombs and vacuum bombs, what is the response from the West? Is this the excuse to get physically involved?

    Also, if Ukraine's application to the EU is fast-tracked or rubber stamped, does that mean that NATO will have to step in on the ground?

    It's all very confusing from this far away (apart from understanding that Putin is a criminal).
    Thermobaric weapons and cluster munitions aren’t outlawed by previous conventions, so there’s no “trigger” that would pull the west in. The problem remains that it’s Russia and escalation could be catastrophic globally.

    The EU is an economic union, and unrelated to NATO other than many countries being members of both organizations.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to dneal For This Useful Post:

    welch (March 1st, 2022)

  5. #24
    Senior Member manoeuver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Near Midwest, US
    Posts
    1,594
    Thanks
    1,227
    Thanked 1,081 Times in 555 Posts
    Rep Power
    15

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    I'm having trouble seeing how Putin gets what he wants, then I remember the nukes.

    Then I wonder what exactly it is that he wants. If it's just a neutral Ukraine (which seems reasonable for him to want) this doesn't seem the way to get that.

    It's heartbreaking to look at my own kids and then imagine kids just like them in Ukraine and the hell their lives are becoming.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to manoeuver For This Useful Post:

    dneal (March 1st, 2022)

  7. #25
    Senior Member welch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    1,031
    Thanks
    1,504
    Thanked 510 Times in 344 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    I have been reading the journalism from these places:

    - The UK Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...nvasion-update

    - The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/03...ine-russia-war

    - The Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ar-putin-news/

    - The Toronto Globe and Mail, as much as I can without subscribing: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/worl...-to-seek-bomb/

    - The SF Chronicle: https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/art...g-16967099.php

    - Al Jazeera: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/...om-un-liveblog
    Last edited by welch; March 1st, 2022 at 09:33 AM.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to welch For This Useful Post:

    dneal (March 1st, 2022)

  9. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,118
    Thanks
    874
    Thanked 2,528 Times in 1,299 Posts
    Rep Power
    13

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    If the news reports are true regarding the use of cluster bombs and vacuum bombs, what is the response from the West? Is this the excuse to get physically involved?

    Also, if Ukraine's application to the EU is fast-tracked or rubber stamped, does that mean that NATO will have to step in on the ground?

    It's all very confusing from this far away (apart from understanding that Putin is a criminal).
    Thermobaric weapons and cluster munitions aren’t outlawed by previous conventions, so there’s no “trigger” that would pull the west in. The problem remains that it’s Russia and escalation could be catastrophic globally.

    The EU is an economic union, and unrelated to NATO other than many countries being members of both organizations.
    Maybe I am missing something, happy to be corrected, but there is a convention against cluster bombs that has quite a number of signatory states, excepting Russia of course. Don't know anything about the vacuum stuff quite frankly. Aside from that though isn't there a general agreement not to target civilian areas? The Geneva Convention covers that part I believe.

    I know the Eu is an economic club, but I was thinking this may have been a first step for Ukraine to signal its intention to apply for NATO membership, whatever that may entail.

    And I agree with @manoeuver, if a neutral Ukraine was the goal there had to be other ways to achieve this. I do sometimes think that this is a grudge thing, a bit like Mugabe's genocide among the ethnic Ndebele after he came to power on the alleged card of uniting a nation.



    From Reuters:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...es-2022-03-01/

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ay-2022-02-28/
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; March 1st, 2022 at 10:52 AM.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Empty_of_Clouds For This Useful Post:

    dneal (March 1st, 2022), manoeuver (March 2nd, 2022)

  11. #27
    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    8,352
    Thanks
    9,830
    Thanked 6,098 Times in 2,213 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Russian leaders and their predecessors have no qualms of doing whatever, they need to do, to achieve their means.
    Stalin caused 3.5 million Ukrainians die from hunger. Check Holdomor
    And he ordered the death of almost all the Polish officers when he took over Poland. They massacred 22 000 officers et.
    I mention Poland, because modern Western Ukraine was part of Poland.
    Back to the Russian leader. In the recent years, the Chechen wars. They razed the capital Grozni.
    If you think Putin won't do it again, watch and see.
    I hope Ukrainians manage to make Russian leaders regret their choice.
    But think how 500 000 refugees can wreak havoc in Europe. They tried it with Syrian refugees in Belarus and created chaos.

    It feels that we are reacting World War II all over again...

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Yazeh For This Useful Post:

    dneal (March 1st, 2022)

  13. #28
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,001
    Thanks
    2,403
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    If the news reports are true regarding the use of cluster bombs and vacuum bombs, what is the response from the West? Is this the excuse to get physically involved?

    Also, if Ukraine's application to the EU is fast-tracked or rubber stamped, does that mean that NATO will have to step in on the ground?

    It's all very confusing from this far away (apart from understanding that Putin is a criminal).
    Thermobaric weapons and cluster munitions aren’t outlawed by previous conventions, so there’s no “trigger” that would pull the west in. The problem remains that it’s Russia and escalation could be catastrophic globally.

    The EU is an economic union, and unrelated to NATO other than many countries being members of both organizations.
    Maybe I am missing something, happy to be corrected, but there is a convention against cluster bombs that has quite a number of signatory states, excepting Russia of course. Don't know anything about the vacuum stuff quite frankly. Aside from that though isn't there a general agreement not to target civilian areas? The Geneva Convention covers that part I believe.

    I know the Eu is an economic club, but I was thinking this may have been a first step for Ukraine to signal its intention to apply for NATO membership, whatever that may entail.

    And I agree with @manoeuver, if a neutral Ukraine was the goal there had to be other ways to achieve this. I do sometimes think that this is a grudge thing, a bit like Mugabe's genocide among the ethnic Ndebele after he came to power on the alleged card of uniting a nation.



    From Reuters:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...es-2022-03-01/

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ay-2022-02-28/
    So I'm generally familiar with cluster munitions due to DPICM's. They're artillery rounds that explode over an area and spread explosive submunitions (about the size of a tennis ball). There is a convention on cluster munitions, because not all of the submunitions detonate - creating an unexploded ordnance issue post conflict - hence the convention. They're still very, very effective and have future applications like BATs (Brilliant Anti-Tank Munitions). The convention is talking about what to do, but no one is willing to give up an effective tool yet. There's like a dozen signatories. Point being that they're not "illegal" munitions like those that most countries agreed not to use in the several Geneva conventions - the "Dum-Dum" bullet (basically the original hollow-point), for example.

    Most of the international Law of Armed Conflict is in the 4th Geneva Convention. Civilians are a weird area. They're people who aren't armed and do not engage in participation of hostilities. Yes, generally you are supposed to limit targeting them or increasing suffering. Point those people out in Ukraine, from Russia's perspective (and I'm not trying to excuse anything about Russian action). Ukraine has issued weapons and created non-uniformed militias. Those people aren't "civilians" anymore (usually the term is "combatant" or "non-combatant"). They're also interspersed among true civilians/non-combatants in cities.

    Now think along the lines of a church (also not supposed to be targeted). You may not specifically target a church, but collateral damage is not illegal, and it loses all protection if used by combatants. Whether something ends up being "illegal" is determined by the victors, but also has to be enforced by someone. A different example: Israel is a signatory to Geneva IV. You can occupy territory, but you can't move your population there - which is what they've done in Palestine/West Bank. Technically in violation, but who is going to enforce it? It's messy.

    RE: EU / NATO. Turkey has been a member of NATO since 1952. The EU still hasn't let them in that club. Only point is that one doesn't guarantee the other. I don't know why Ukraine is asking for some immediate acceptance, since to the best of my knowledge there are no security guarantees. There has been the question of economic alignment with the EU or Russia, and Russia has wanted the latter (although "economic alignment" to Russia probably means "economic control" - and therefore political control).

    If Ukraine thinks sudden admittance to the EU will protect them from something, or trigger defense obligations; I think they're mistaken. Suppose the EU agrees and Putin succeeds? It's a worthless agreement since he controls the country.

    Putin still needs a land bridge to Crimea (i.e.: Sevastopol), and that's eastern Ukraine. That's where the majority of the 17% ethnic Russians in Ukraine live. I don't know why he invaded the whole country, and no one does but Putin. Maybe it's bargaining, and what he'll settle for is an eastern slice. Maybe that's what he always intended. Maybe it's simply conquest, and he wants to restore (or begin to restore) a greater Russia - which also creates an absolute buffer between NATO and Russian mainland (like Belarus). Maybe it's just an enormous miscalculation on his part.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to dneal For This Useful Post:

    Empty_of_Clouds (March 1st, 2022)

  15. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,118
    Thanks
    874
    Thanked 2,528 Times in 1,299 Posts
    Rep Power
    13

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Yes, it's an unfortunate end run that as soon as the civilian population offers resistance they become combatants and credible targets.

    The thing about the EU is what initially confused me. I too could not grasp why Ukraine is asking for immediate acceptance. The reasoning behind this has not been made clear by them or any of the usual news pundits.

  16. #30
    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    8,352
    Thanks
    9,830
    Thanked 6,098 Times in 2,213 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    @dneal thanks for the original post. it's clear, concise and comprehensible for the layman.

    However, Russia has already 6 Nato members at is doorsteps,
    The three Baltic countries, Poland (with Kaliningrad) and Norway and Turkey (Maritime border).
    (I forgo, US, obviously)
    What difference will another one make?

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Yazeh For This Useful Post:

    dneal (March 1st, 2022)

  18. #31
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    2,132
    Thanks
    98
    Thanked 1,079 Times in 632 Posts
    Rep Power
    6

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Putin has gone off the rails.

    This photo is worth more words than I care to spend.



    Acute megalomania? Terrified of the virus? Afraid of playing Hitler in the failed briefcase plot?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot

  19. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Chip For This Useful Post:

    dneal (March 1st, 2022), Yazeh (March 1st, 2022)

  20. #32
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,001
    Thanks
    2,403
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    @dneal thanks for the original post. it's clear, concise and comprehensible for the layman.

    However, Russia has already 6 Nato members at is doorsteps,
    The three Baltic countries, Poland (with Kaliningrad) and Norway and Turkey (Maritime border).
    (I forgo, US, obviously)
    What difference will another one make?
    Apparently a lot to Putin.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Putin has gone off the rails.

    This photo is worth more words than I care to spend.

    That, and many similar pictures are what cause me concern. He's paranoid about something, and that's not a good sign.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  21. The Following User Says Thank You to dneal For This Useful Post:

    Yazeh (March 1st, 2022)

  22. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,793
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 898 Times in 690 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    @dneal was for Putin since Trump
    Was for Putin. Don’t but this sudden concern for human life. She/he’s not been concerned for 2 years .

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to Chuck Naill For This Useful Post:

    dneal (March 1st, 2022)

  24. #34
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,001
    Thanks
    2,403
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    @dneal was for Putin since Trump
    Was for Putin. Don’t but this sudden concern for human life. She/he’s not been concerned for 2 years .
    Chuck, thanks for removing any ambiguity on who this forum's troll really is. Well done.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  25. The Following User Says Thank You to dneal For This Useful Post:

    vdiantonio (March 9th, 2022)

  26. #35
    Senior Member welch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    1,031
    Thanks
    1,504
    Thanked 510 Times in 344 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    The Post suggests that Putin is terrified of Covid. His meeting with his security council showed them in a tightly-packed semi-circle on the far side of an large council chamber from Putin. The reporter says, no, it was not because Putin wants to appear like an emperor, although he does so want, but from a fear of Covid.

    Incidentally, Putin keeps showing himself in front of a magnificent double-eagle flag. That is the Byzantine-Roman imperial double eagle. Russians fancied Moscow as "Third Rome", after Rome and Constantinople. "A fourth there shall not be".

  27. The Following User Says Thank You to welch For This Useful Post:

    dneal (March 1st, 2022)

  28. #36
    Senior Member welch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    1,031
    Thanks
    1,504
    Thanked 510 Times in 344 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    The Post says, as of this afternoon:

    A 40-mile-long column of Russian tanks and combat vehicles has “stalled” north of Kyiv, a senior U.S. defense official said Tuesday. The Russians appeared to be regrouping six days into their invasion of Ukraine while dealing with fierce resistance and fuel and food shortages.

    The column effectively has not moved in a day, putting it about 30 kilometers (18.6 miles) north of central Kyiv.

    About 80 percent of the combat power that Russia prestaged at the Ukrainian border is now committed to the war, up from just under 75 percent Monday, and the Russians are shelling Kyiv, the senior defense official said.

    The United States has seen signs that Russian soldiers, especially young conscripts, did not know they were being sent into combat, the U.S. defense official said.

    The Russian regrouping comes as fierce fighting and shelling continue in the northeastern city of Kharkiv, and as Russia employs multiple-rocket launcher systems in Ukraine that could be used to fire thermobaric weapons, the senior defense official said. Such weapons are designed to ignite fuel using oxygen in the air, creating what has been described as a vacuum effect.

    “We do assess that they have launcher systems that could be used for a thermobaric weapon, but we cannot confirm the presence of a thermobaric weapon, and we cannot confirm the use of a thermobaric weapon,” the senior U.S. defense official said.

    In the southern part of the country, Russian and Ukrainian forces are fighting in the city of Kherson, and Russia has occupied Berdyansk and taken possession of Melitopol, a city of about 150,000.

    Russian forces remain outside the major southern city of Mariupol but are now close enough to attack it with artillery and other long-range weapons, the senior defense official said.

    Airspace over Ukraine continues to be contested, despite the massive size advantage of the Russian air force, the Pentagon assesses. As of Tuesday morning, Russia had launched about 400 missiles at Ukraine since the invasion began, up from about 380 on Monday, the senior defense official said.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...DCK5PPECL2JJ74

  29. #37
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,001
    Thanks
    2,403
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    The Post suggests that Putin is terrified of Covid. His meeting with his security council showed them in a tightly-packed semi-circle on the far side of an large council chamber from Putin. The reporter says, no, it was not because Putin wants to appear like an emperor, although he does so want, but from a fear of Covid.

    Incidentally, Putin keeps showing himself in front of a magnificent double-eagle flag. That is the Byzantine-Roman imperial double eagle. Russians fancied Moscow as "Third Rome", after Rome and Constantinople. "A fourth there shall not be".
    I think it’s fear of Covid based as well, and I suspect the isolation that resulted exacerbated it. Could be age and some other cognitive decline too. He leverages uncertainty, but he’s approaching bizarre.

    BTW, the Russian double eagle is just historic and goes back to the Tsars. I wouldn’t read too much into that.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  30. #38
    Senior Member welch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    1,031
    Thanks
    1,504
    Thanked 510 Times in 344 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    From the NY Times:

    It has been a menacing presence in the war in Ukraine: Satellite images have shown a military convoy stretching 40 miles long on a roadway north of Kyiv, with a number of homes and buildings seen burning nearby.

    Experts fear the convoy, which includes supply and armored attack vehicles, could be used to encircle and cut off the capital or to launch a full-on assault. The front end of the convoy is just 20 miles from the capital.

    “What we are seeing is basically Phase 2, which is a shift to much more brutal, tactless, unrestricted warfare, which will lead to many more civilian casualties and bloodier battles,” said Mathieu Boulègue, an expert in Russian warfare at Chatham House, a leading policy institute in London.

    While the Ukrainian military has air power and missiles capable of striking the convoy, its abilities are limited. Targeting such a long convoy would present its own challenges, as well as risk inciting Russia to retaliate.

    “The Ukrainians attacking it from the air would have to make a decision of taking their very limited air force and going after what is a very difficult target,” said Frederick W. Kagan, the director of the Critical Threats project at the American Enterprise Institute, which has partnered with the Institute of the Study of War to provide updates on the Russian invasion. He noted that the Russian military is likely defending the convoy aggressively.

    It was also possible that Ukrainian commanders are waiting to engage the armored vehicles until they enter Kyiv, where they could be more easily destroyed while confined on city streets, and where neighborhoods could provide plenty of hiding places and protection for soldiers firing anti-tank missiles.
    Experts cautioned that it was still too early to tell the convoy’s exact purpose, saying that it was also possible that the convoy could be used as part of a pincer movement to cut off the northeast of the country. But they said that Russia appeared to be adapting its initial strategy.

    Under that strategy, Kremlin leaders had wrongly assumed Ukrainian forces would suffer a swift defeat against a superior Russian military, and that Russian forces could quickly take major cities without much fighting. Instead, Russian forces were stalled by stiff resistance from both Ukraine’s military and citizens who took up arms.

    So what do we know about this convoy? Cloud cover has made it difficult to get a continuous or complete view of the area or a clear sense of the convoy’s movement. It was not clear whether the buildings and homes seen burning had been attacked.

    The convoy is dotted along a roadway that stretches from Antonov airport to the north toward the village of Prybirsk for approximately 40 miles, according to Maxar Technologies, which released the images.

    It includes food supply trucks for soldiers and fuel for vehicles, but the bulk of it, in Mr. Boulègue’s assessment, is made up of miles upon miles of heavy artillery.

    The convoy is not one continuous line. Some vehicles are spaced far apart from one another, while in some sections two or three military vehicles are moving alongside each other across the road.

    Mr. Kagan said it was notable that the convoy was not made up entirely of attack vehicles.

    A Pentagon official said on Tuesday that Russian forces had been plagued by shortages of fuel, food and spare parts. Mr. Kagan said a number of trucks in the column likely contained such essential supplies to avoid more logistical problems.

    Mr. Kagan observed that when Russia initially concentrated its forces, in particular on the Belarusian border ahead of its advance, it didn’t appear to have built up the kind of logistical base usually mobilized before an attack was launched. That, he said, helped to explain why Russia’s incursion had failed to quickly capture the capital.

    While it was not unusual for an invading force to have such logistical challenges, he said it was unusual for them to persist several days into an invasion and in a military operation in which President Vladimir V. Putin had spent at least months preparing.

    “It reflects the fact that this invasion was in fact poorly planned, poorly, poorly prepared, and is being poorly conducted,” Mr. Kagan said. “That column reflects, in part, Russia scrambled to adjust to problems that they had created by the way that they prepared and conducted this attack.”

    Despite Russia’s superior firepower and resources, visible in the miles of weaponry outside Kyiv, Mr. Kagan said the outcome of the battle was not a forgone conclusion, noting how Ukraine’s forces and civilians had shown unexpected resilience.

    “I would hedge that bet,” he said.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/w...y-ukraine.html

  31. #39
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    6,001
    Thanks
    2,403
    Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,306 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    RE: the WashPost and NYT articles (and thanks for posting the text, because paywalls...):

    The "stall" (and the sudden ask for peace talks) concerns me because it's a tactical pause that lets him regroup and update orders. More than that, it's an opportunity to fix his logistics problem.

    Although that was my first thought, I listened to a pundit report that supposedly the request came after a call with Xi. My first response was "cause it's bad for business", but literally that is the case from a Chinese perspective. Getting tangled up in sanctions isn't something they want.

    The analysis went on to emphasize that China uses "sovereignty" rhetoric often. Taiwan isn't a sovereign nation, just a part of China held by rebels. Shut up about Uyghurs, because that's in our country and a matter of our sovereignty. It paints them in a corner if they don't recognize Ukraine's sovereignty and support Putin.

    They abstained at the security council vote. Read into that what you will. I think the "it's bad for business" notion is key.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  32. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dneal For This Useful Post:

    welch (March 1st, 2022), Yazeh (March 1st, 2022)

  33. #40
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,630
    Thanks
    3,597
    Thanked 1,043 Times in 637 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: Ukraine outrage and analysis.

    🤎Andrew Lensky posted on FB 2 hours ago.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  34. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Lloyd For This Useful Post:

    dneal (March 1st, 2022), Yazeh (March 2nd, 2022)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •