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Thread: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

  1. #181
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Medievalist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    My present issue here has been solely focused on the veracity of any claims about the languages that this man Jesus could speak and/or read and write. After all, if he was actually divine in the Christian sense, then I would imagine that believers would think that he could speak, read, understand all languages, including the "Word" beyond all languages.
    Again, speaking of the Bible as a collection of literary texts, that's actually not the agenda. The point of Christ being created as part of the trinity was to live and die as a man. You're engaging in the same trope that people reading Tolkien's LOTR engage in when they want to have the eagles rescue Frodo.

    That isn't the point of the narrative.

    Speaking as someone who studies Christian theology, again, you're missing the point. There's the whole 40 days of wilderness and denying the temptations presented to him by "Satan." And you're sort of engaging in a side-ways commentary of Corinthians 1:1315.

    There isn't a lot of contemporary extra Biblical references to Jesus Christ. However, we know quite a lot about the typical life of a Jewish man in the general area of the Mediterranean and Israel during era of Christ. We have a lot of evidence in texts, including first hand reports about life then (including letters, many of them exceedingly gossipy) and a lot of archaeological data.

    I think you are less interested in what languages Jesus knew, and more interested in taking pot shots at Christians and Christianity. Not here for that; it's mean-spirited. While I am emphatically not someone who identifies as Christian, or any kind of religious follower, condemning entire groups of people for the crimes of some is bigotry.
    Dude. There is no pot shot in this: what direct evidence is there that Jesus of Nazareth, a Mediterranean peasant laborer, was literate in a language other than Aramaic and perhaps some Hebrew. I am not convinced he was literate at all, but I am not convinced otherwise, either. I genuinely want to know. You have stated more than once that you are the scholar. I figured that you would know the answer, then. I have never encountered any, but my readings on the matter have been limited.

    I don't know what your references to scripture are meant to convey about my motives or behaviors.

  2. #182
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Whether you are convinced or not is of little importance.. Jewish eduction for boys is well documented and understood.

    That you have nothing but academic experience shows.

    While I understand your concern, youíre missing it.

  3. #183
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Medievalist View Post

    There isn't a lot of contemporary extra Biblical references to Jesus Christ.
    That's my understanding, and what I have said here. Why are you questioning my motives?

    However, we know quite a lot about the typical life of a Jewish man in the general area of the Mediterranean and Israel during era of Christ.
    Do you know an estimate of the literacy rate among adult Jewish males in the labor trades at that time? And in each language?

    I think you are less interested in what languages Jesus knew, and more interested in taking pot shots at Christians and Christianity.
    You have this wrong, in this case. When I take shots at the preumptions of faith-based attempts at data-claims, I state them clearly. Here, since you have claimed to be a "scholar" in certain related studies (the time of Jesus was not "Medieval"), I am simply asking for straight evidence and data (or a place that I could find it). It's not taking a "pot shot" to ask you, after you volunteered the claim, to explain how the man called Jesus in the Christian Bible was likely to have been literate and in multiple languages. As far as I know--and I am willing to read some more about this--there is no actual evidence that Jesus was literate. And, as I noted, it is difficult even to present material from the gospels as anything definitive about the life of that man except that he lived, probably stated some memorable aphorisms and parables that may or may not be recorded accurately in the texts, had miraculous acts attributed to him, and then a movement formed and continued on after his death, likely by execution (separately, there is much record and data on the Roman use of public execution of Jews and other conquered peoples).

    But his literacy? And multiple languages (beyond Aramaic and a bit of Hebrew)? Honestly, I think that no one knows anything objectively accurate, or even likely accurate, about this. But I am open to the possibility. I just need to be more convinced than with what has been presented here thus far. Nothing substantial yet.

  4. #184
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Here's a proof of the literacy of Jesus*. Wasn't Jesus a professional carpenter? They use tools, right? Tools come with instructions, right? Reading instructions require literacy (as does reading a blueprint... and billing the customer). So, to be professional carpenter, he must have had literacy.

    *This is as much of a proof as the ones earlier in this thread about the existence of a... whatever.

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    TSherbs (May 6th, 2022)

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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Rather a swerve, but the spat about illiteracy recalls the fact that for centuries, the Catholic hierarchy was mostly opposed to any translation of the bible from priestly Latin to any commonly spoken language.

    That is, they didn't want the people to read the central document supporting their corrupt religious empire, and perhaps to reach their own conclusions.

    So telling us to read the bible is, in historic terms, richly ironic.

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    TSherbs (May 6th, 2022)

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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    I got this, from Zondervan Academic website (a Christian publishing house, for what that is worth):

    How Educated Were Jesus's Listeners?

    Most scholars propose literacy rates ranging from 10 per-cent on the high end (William Harris) to less than 3 per-cent on the low end (Meir Bar-Ilan).16 Even if these figures are low estimates, itís still likely a majority of people could not read and write, and thus did not know Hebrew.
    This site claims that Jesus was likely literate (although admitting that we can't be sure); it's sources, though, are mostly from the Gospels and other biblical books. In other words, Jesus, for whatever reason, even as a carpenter/laborer, beats the low literacy odds mentioned above. But we don't know why, or even if he actually did. It's is hard, I would imagine, for adherents to Christian principles and beliefs, to make Jesus an illiterate messiah.

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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I got this, from Zondervan Academic website (a Christian publishing house, for what that is worth):

    How Educated Were Jesus's Listeners?

    Most scholars propose literacy rates ranging from 10 per-cent on the high end (William Harris) to less than 3 per-cent on the low end (Meir Bar-Ilan).16 Even if these figures are low estimates, itís still likely a majority of people could not read and write, and thus did not know Hebrew.
    This site claims that Jesus was likely literate (although admitting that we can't be sure); it's sources, though, are mostly from the Gospels and other biblical books. In other words, Jesus, for whatever reason, even as a carpenter/laborer, beats the low literacy odds mentioned above. But we don't know why, or even if he actually did. It's is hard, I would imagine, for adherents to Christian principles and beliefs, to make Jesus an illiterate messiah.
    This same site quotes a source that states that Galilee was a region of higher-than-normal-number of "sages" referred to by Josephus, but these were all from a higher class of elites than that laborer/trade class of the family of Jesus of Nazareth. The odds are against Jesus having been literate, especially in anything except Aramaic (which would have been the sole language of his protractor manual and brand name on his saw blade (nod to Lloyd).

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  11. #188
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Here's a proof of the literacy of Jesus*. Wasn't Jesus a professional carpenter? They use tools, right? Tools come with instructions, right?
    Are you being absurd on purpose? At that time, tools did not come with printed instructions. Any instruction in their use was verbal, based on an apprenticeship.

  12. #189
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Here's a proof of the literacy of Jesus*. Wasn't Jesus a professional carpenter? They use tools, right? Tools come with instructions, right?
    Are you being absurd on purpose? At that time, tools did not come with printed instructions. Any instruction in their use was verbal, based on an apprenticeship.
    You actually thought I was serious? Besides, he could have learned how to use the tools watching late night infomercials or episodes of "This Extremely Old House".

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  13. #190
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Here's a proof of the literacy of Jesus*. Wasn't Jesus a professional carpenter? They use tools, right? Tools come with instructions, right?
    Are you being absurd on purpose? At that time, tools did not come with printed instructions. Any instruction in their use was verbal, based on an apprenticeship.
    Chip, really?

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  15. #191
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    I took it as humour, but given the spurious reasoning much in evidence on this thread, I responded to the words rather than the intent.

    Alas!

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    Lloyd (May 8th, 2022)

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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    I took it as humour, but given the spurious reasoning much in evidence on this thread, I responded to the words rather than the intent.

    Alas!
    There are zealots in the corners, but Lloyd ain't one of 'em.

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    Lloyd (May 8th, 2022)

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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    I took it as humour, but given the spurious reasoning much in evidence on this thread, I responded to the words rather than the intent.

    Alas!
    There are zealots in the corners, but Lloyd ain't one of 'em.
    Well, I exhibit zealotry against all zealots.... an anti-zealot zealot.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  20. #194
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    And I for the poetry of Walt Whitman...

    And for the value per dollar of the Jinhao 100 (I am a missionary for the 100)...

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    Lloyd (May 8th, 2022)

  22. #195
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Some are anti-religious zealots.

  23. #196
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    And then there are the enemies of spelling and punctuation.

  24. #197
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    And then, there are the enemies of spelling and punctuation.
    Do tell....



    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  25. #198
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    And then there are the enemies of spelling and punctuation.
    covfefe

  26. #199
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Time to call the grammar cops.


  27. #200
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to approach the teachings of Jesus

    Anyone familiar with Dr. Bart Ehrman? I just listened to this podcast
    https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR...3YTU2M2Q?ep=14

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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