Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Guilloche

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,118
    Thanks
    874
    Thanked 2,528 Times in 1,299 Posts
    Rep Power
    13

    Default Guilloche

    Machine pattern for machine thinking
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; May 13th, 2022 at 02:42 AM.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Empty_of_Clouds For This Useful Post:

    AlohaPens (April 30th, 2022)

  3. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    Eastern Canada
    Posts
    172
    Thanks
    411
    Thanked 130 Times in 76 Posts
    Rep Power
    5

    Default Re: Guilloche

    For some of your questions, Wikipedia is your friend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilloché

  4. #3
    Senior Member Chip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    2,132
    Thanks
    98
    Thanked 1,079 Times in 632 Posts
    Rep Power
    6

    Default Re: Guilloche

    I got this Levenger pen, guilloché on stainless steel with goldplated trim, as a gift.



    It's a bit flash for my taste. I've seen guilloché engraving coated with translucent enamel, such as this S. T. Dupont pen, that I liked.



    Looks like a tedious process. I'd think that computer-guided machining is used to produce most present guilloché patterns.
    Last edited by Chip; April 29th, 2022 at 11:23 PM.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Chip For This Useful Post:

    Bisquitlips (May 12th, 2022)

  6. #4
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,630
    Thanks
    3,597
    Thanked 1,043 Times in 637 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: Guilloche

    Look into cloisonne

  7. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Posts
    476
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 155 Times in 106 Posts
    Rep Power
    3

    Default Re: Guilloche

    I also collect mechanical watches (my father was a watchmaker) and I know guilloche (pronounced Gee O shay) on watches used to be done on something called a rose machine. It was sort of similar to a pantograph. Nowadays, I think most (with the exception of high end watches) is done with either CNC machine or lasering.

    My guess.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Dougc For This Useful Post:

    Lloyd (May 5th, 2022)

  9. #6
    Senior Member manoeuver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Near Midwest, US
    Posts
    1,594
    Thanks
    1,227
    Thanked 1,081 Times in 555 Posts
    Rep Power
    15

    Default Re: Guilloche

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Wouldn't coating with enamel or lacquer remove the grip quality that guilloche adds? Seems a bit counterproductive.
    it looks really nice tho.

  10. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,739
    Thanks
    139
    Thanked 609 Times in 445 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Guilloche

    Not clear that guilloche is for grip as opposed to decoration.
    Check the Classic Pens site [Lambrou not Mottishaw] for designs incorporating guilloche.
    Search " Murelli guilloche" for the Company creating guilloche and their machines.

  11. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Location
    St. Louis area
    Posts
    353
    Thanks
    57
    Thanked 211 Times in 115 Posts
    Rep Power
    3

    Default Re: Guilloche

    I do not have any pens with this pattern, but at least on watches(of which I've handled a lot) the pattern is so fine that it can't be felt. You also NEVER abrasively polish watch plates so decorated as it will disappear.

    I've studied in some depth how the practice was done at the American Watch Company(Waltham, MA) and they actually actually would use buffiing wheels/sticks of ivory and/or felt to apply the pattern. Up until probably the mid-1890s the artist(yes, I call them that) had a lot of leeway and individual liberty in how they applied patterns, and the machinery used at Waltham allowed them to do so.

    There is one particular model/grade of which I have nearly 100 examples in my personal collection and have handled hundreds more. I have yet to find two of them that are absolutely identical. Because I've been the main one studying/cataloging this particular model/grade since about 2010, I've started some rudimentary classification of general pattern types(which I suspect may be tied to individual operators, although I've not been able to make it to the Harvard library to see the business archives of the company and see if I can tell how many people were employed in that department, their tenure, and try to potentially even connect those) but it's also a maddening endeavor as there are so many hundreds of different ones.

    BTW, this is WHY I love collecting stuff, and this "big picture" of one small slice of over 100,000,000 watches made in America is maddening but also an area in which there's a lot of unknowns that I think can be partially found.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to bunnspecial For This Useful Post:

    Lloyd (May 11th, 2022)

  13. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    240
    Thanks
    137
    Thanked 190 Times in 106 Posts
    Rep Power
    7

    Default Re: Guilloche

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnspecial View Post
    I do not have any pens with this pattern, but at least on watches(of which I've handled a lot) the pattern is so fine that it can't be felt. You also NEVER abrasively polish watch plates so decorated as it will disappear.

    I've studied in some depth how the practice was done at the American Watch Company(Waltham, MA) and they actually actually would use buffiing wheels/sticks of ivory and/or felt to apply the pattern. Up until probably the mid-1890s the artist(yes, I call them that) had a lot of leeway and individual liberty in how they applied patterns, and the machinery used at Waltham allowed them to do so.

    There is one particular model/grade of which I have nearly 100 examples in my personal collection and have handled hundreds more. I have yet to find two of them that are absolutely identical. Because I've been the main one studying/cataloging this particular model/grade since about 2010, I've started some rudimentary classification of general pattern types(which I suspect may be tied to individual operators, although I've not been able to make it to the Harvard library to see the business archives of the company and see if I can tell how many people were employed in that department, their tenure, and try to potentially even connect those) but it's also a maddening endeavor as there are so many hundreds of different ones.

    BTW, this is WHY I love collecting stuff, and this "big picture" of one small slice of over 100,000,000 watches made in America is maddening but also an area in which there's a lot of unknowns that I think can be partially found.
    Isn't the fine abrasive patterning to surfaces of watch interiors (movement components and case inner surfaces) often referred to as "Damaskeening"? I would think that the defining difference is that engine turning/guilloche are done with various cutters/engravers, as opposed to applying patterns with abrasives. Really, the point of any such metal working is to make cuts of various angles to reflect light as the object is moved. I have seen some pretty nice work done by stamping, rolling, pressing and striking which is called guilloche, but it is the shiny surface of a keenly cut groove that gives real engine turning, or hand engraving, its brilliant reflective properties. I kind of doubt that there is a whole lot of actual engine turning done these days on fountain pens.

    Bob

  14. #10
    Senior Member manoeuver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Near Midwest, US
    Posts
    1,594
    Thanks
    1,227
    Thanked 1,081 Times in 555 Posts
    Rep Power
    15

    Default Re: Guilloche

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnspecial View Post
    I do not have any pens with this pattern, but at least on watches(of which I've handled a lot) the pattern is so fine that it can't be felt. You also NEVER abrasively polish watch plates so decorated as it will disappear.

    I've studied in some depth how the practice was done at the American Watch Company(Waltham, MA) and they actually actually would use buffiing wheels/sticks of ivory and/or felt to apply the pattern. Up until probably the mid-1890s the artist(yes, I call them that) had a lot of leeway and individual liberty in how they applied patterns, and the machinery used at Waltham allowed them to do so.

    There is one particular model/grade of which I have nearly 100 examples in my personal collection and have handled hundreds more. I have yet to find two of them that are absolutely identical. Because I've been the main one studying/cataloging this particular model/grade since about 2010, I've started some rudimentary classification of general pattern types(which I suspect may be tied to individual operators, although I've not been able to make it to the Harvard library to see the business archives of the company and see if I can tell how many people were employed in that department, their tenure, and try to potentially even connect those) but it's also a maddening endeavor as there are so many hundreds of different ones.

    BTW, this is WHY I love collecting stuff, and this "big picture" of one small slice of over 100,000,000 watches made in America is maddening but also an area in which there's a lot of unknowns that I think can be partially found.
    some photos would be appropriate, I think

  15. #11
    Senior Member Bisquitlips's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    KCMO
    Posts
    999
    Thanks
    955
    Thanked 546 Times in 213 Posts
    Rep Power
    9

    Default Re: Guilloche

    According to what I have read, Guilloche has always had a machine involved in the process dating back to the 16th century. The first "machines" were crude and used on soft materials like ivory and then progressed with time to the advanced machines we have today that can engrave just about anything within the imagination. Yard of Led does some outstanding Guilloche work on their sterling pens and of course, there are those that will guilloche a pen body and then overlay the design with many coats of urushi.

    Either way, I am glad someone invented the machine and the process.










  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Bisquitlips For This Useful Post:

    eachan (May 13th, 2022)

  17. #12
    Senior Member christof's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Confoederatio Helvetica
    Posts
    1,875
    Thanks
    1,893
    Thanked 7,814 Times in 1,426 Posts
    Rep Power
    17

    Default Re: Guilloche

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisquitlips View Post
    According to what I have read, Guilloche has always had a machine involved in the process dating back to the 16th century....
    There is a very informative thread about the manufacturing process of Guilloches on german penexchange.de forum. written by Thomas Neureither, collector friend and director of the fountain pen museum Heidelberg Germany http://museen.de/fuellhaltermuseum-h...eidelberg.html

    here the link to the article on penexchange:
    https://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu...ilit=Guilloche


    and here some pictures of my own contributions to the thread:



    metal pencils





    very rare Guilloche pattern on a Montblanc 124S:




    more metal pens:

    EBOS solid Gold



    LAMY 27 solid gold



    Waterman's C.F. solid gold:



    Parker 61 Presidential 18 carats:




    Fend rolled gold





    Fend fine Silver



    Greif rolled Gold

    Last edited by christof; May 13th, 2022 at 12:51 AM.

  18. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to christof For This Useful Post:

    catbert (May 13th, 2022), dneal (May 13th, 2022), eachan (May 13th, 2022), Jon Szanto (May 13th, 2022), Prettypenguin (May 14th, 2022), Wahl (May 14th, 2022)

  19. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,658
    Thanks
    2,027
    Thanked 2,189 Times in 1,419 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Guilloche

    These patterns are not my cup of tea, but they do seem impressive!

  20. #14
    FPG Donor ♕ Chrissy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    11,405
    Thanks
    6,879
    Thanked 10,367 Times in 3,978 Posts
    Rep Power
    24

    Default Re: Guilloche

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    These patterns are not my cup of tea, but they do seem impressive!
    For me guilloche enamels and chased patterns can be really attractive on pens but it's quite easy for some manufacturers to take it one step too far and instead of making the pen look classy and sophisticated it can easily turn out gaudy and cheap/tacky looking. There's a fine line when using guilloche.
    Regards, Chrissy | My Review Blog: inkyfountainpens

  21. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Chrissy For This Useful Post:

    TSherbs (May 14th, 2022), Wahl (May 14th, 2022)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •