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Thread: Guilloche

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    Senior Member Empty_of_Clouds's Avatar
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    Default Guilloche

    Machine pattern for machine thinking
    Last edited by Empty_of_Clouds; May 13th, 2022 at 02:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Guilloche

    For some of your questions, Wikipedia is your friend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilloché

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    Default Re: Guilloche

    I got this Levenger pen, guilloché on stainless steel with goldplated trim, as a gift.



    It's a bit flash for my taste. I've seen guilloché engraving coated with translucent enamel, such as this S. T. Dupont pen, that I liked.



    Looks like a tedious process. I'd think that computer-guided machining is used to produce most present guilloché patterns.
    Last edited by Chip; April 29th, 2022 at 11:23 PM.

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    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Guilloche

    Look into cloisonne

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    Default Re: Guilloche

    I also collect mechanical watches (my father was a watchmaker) and I know guilloche (pronounced Gee O shay) on watches used to be done on something called a rose machine. It was sort of similar to a pantograph. Nowadays, I think most (with the exception of high end watches) is done with either CNC machine or lasering.

    My guess.

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    Default Re: Guilloche

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Wouldn't coating with enamel or lacquer remove the grip quality that guilloche adds? Seems a bit counterproductive.
    it looks really nice tho.

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    Default Re: Guilloche

    Not clear that guilloche is for grip as opposed to decoration.
    Check the Classic Pens site [Lambrou not Mottishaw] for designs incorporating guilloche.
    Search " Murelli guilloche" for the Company creating guilloche and their machines.

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    Default Re: Guilloche

    I do not have any pens with this pattern, but at least on watches(of which I've handled a lot) the pattern is so fine that it can't be felt. You also NEVER abrasively polish watch plates so decorated as it will disappear.

    I've studied in some depth how the practice was done at the American Watch Company(Waltham, MA) and they actually actually would use buffiing wheels/sticks of ivory and/or felt to apply the pattern. Up until probably the mid-1890s the artist(yes, I call them that) had a lot of leeway and individual liberty in how they applied patterns, and the machinery used at Waltham allowed them to do so.

    There is one particular model/grade of which I have nearly 100 examples in my personal collection and have handled hundreds more. I have yet to find two of them that are absolutely identical. Because I've been the main one studying/cataloging this particular model/grade since about 2010, I've started some rudimentary classification of general pattern types(which I suspect may be tied to individual operators, although I've not been able to make it to the Harvard library to see the business archives of the company and see if I can tell how many people were employed in that department, their tenure, and try to potentially even connect those) but it's also a maddening endeavor as there are so many hundreds of different ones.

    BTW, this is WHY I love collecting stuff, and this "big picture" of one small slice of over 100,000,000 watches made in America is maddening but also an area in which there's a lot of unknowns that I think can be partially found.

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    Lloyd (May 11th, 2022)

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    Default Re: Guilloche

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnspecial View Post
    I do not have any pens with this pattern, but at least on watches(of which I've handled a lot) the pattern is so fine that it can't be felt. You also NEVER abrasively polish watch plates so decorated as it will disappear.

    I've studied in some depth how the practice was done at the American Watch Company(Waltham, MA) and they actually actually would use buffiing wheels/sticks of ivory and/or felt to apply the pattern. Up until probably the mid-1890s the artist(yes, I call them that) had a lot of leeway and individual liberty in how they applied patterns, and the machinery used at Waltham allowed them to do so.

    There is one particular model/grade of which I have nearly 100 examples in my personal collection and have handled hundreds more. I have yet to find two of them that are absolutely identical. Because I've been the main one studying/cataloging this particular model/grade since about 2010, I've started some rudimentary classification of general pattern types(which I suspect may be tied to individual operators, although I've not been able to make it to the Harvard library to see the business archives of the company and see if I can tell how many people were employed in that department, their tenure, and try to potentially even connect those) but it's also a maddening endeavor as there are so many hundreds of different ones.

    BTW, this is WHY I love collecting stuff, and this "big picture" of one small slice of over 100,000,000 watches made in America is maddening but also an area in which there's a lot of unknowns that I think can be partially found.
    Isn't the fine abrasive patterning to surfaces of watch interiors (movement components and case inner surfaces) often referred to as "Damaskeening"? I would think that the defining difference is that engine turning/guilloche are done with various cutters/engravers, as opposed to applying patterns with abrasives. Really, the point of any such metal working is to make cuts of various angles to reflect light as the object is moved. I have seen some pretty nice work done by stamping, rolling, pressing and striking which is called guilloche, but it is the shiny surface of a keenly cut groove that gives real engine turning, or hand engraving, its brilliant reflective properties. I kind of doubt that there is a whole lot of actual engine turning done these days on fountain pens.

    Bob

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    Default Re: Guilloche

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnspecial View Post
    I do not have any pens with this pattern, but at least on watches(of which I've handled a lot) the pattern is so fine that it can't be felt. You also NEVER abrasively polish watch plates so decorated as it will disappear.

    I've studied in some depth how the practice was done at the American Watch Company(Waltham, MA) and they actually actually would use buffiing wheels/sticks of ivory and/or felt to apply the pattern. Up until probably the mid-1890s the artist(yes, I call them that) had a lot of leeway and individual liberty in how they applied patterns, and the machinery used at Waltham allowed them to do so.

    There is one particular model/grade of which I have nearly 100 examples in my personal collection and have handled hundreds more. I have yet to find two of them that are absolutely identical. Because I've been the main one studying/cataloging this particular model/grade since about 2010, I've started some rudimentary classification of general pattern types(which I suspect may be tied to individual operators, although I've not been able to make it to the Harvard library to see the business archives of the company and see if I can tell how many people were employed in that department, their tenure, and try to potentially even connect those) but it's also a maddening endeavor as there are so many hundreds of different ones.

    BTW, this is WHY I love collecting stuff, and this "big picture" of one small slice of over 100,000,000 watches made in America is maddening but also an area in which there's a lot of unknowns that I think can be partially found.
    some photos would be appropriate, I think

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    Default Re: Guilloche

    According to what I have read, Guilloche has always had a machine involved in the process dating back to the 16th century. The first "machines" were crude and used on soft materials like ivory and then progressed with time to the advanced machines we have today that can engrave just about anything within the imagination. Yard of Led does some outstanding Guilloche work on their sterling pens and of course, there are those that will guilloche a pen body and then overlay the design with many coats of urushi.

    Either way, I am glad someone invented the machine and the process.










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    Default Re: Guilloche

    Quote Originally Posted by Bisquitlips View Post
    According to what I have read, Guilloche has always had a machine involved in the process dating back to the 16th century....
    There is a very informative thread about the manufacturing process of Guilloches on german penexchange.de forum. written by Thomas Neureither, collector friend and director of the fountain pen museum Heidelberg Germany http://museen.de/fuellhaltermuseum-h...eidelberg.html

    here the link to the article on penexchange:
    https://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu...ilit=Guilloche


    and here some pictures of my own contributions to the thread:



    metal pencils





    very rare Guilloche pattern on a Montblanc 124S:




    more metal pens:

    EBOS solid Gold



    LAMY 27 solid gold



    Waterman's C.F. solid gold:



    Parker 61 Presidential 18 carats:




    Fend rolled gold





    Fend fine Silver



    Greif rolled Gold

    Last edited by christof; May 13th, 2022 at 12:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Guilloche

    These patterns are not my cup of tea, but they do seem impressive!

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    Default Re: Guilloche

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    These patterns are not my cup of tea, but they do seem impressive!
    For me guilloche enamels and chased patterns can be really attractive on pens but it's quite easy for some manufacturers to take it one step too far and instead of making the pen look classy and sophisticated it can easily turn out gaudy and cheap/tacky looking. There's a fine line when using guilloche.
    Regards, Chrissy | My Blog: inkyfountainpens

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