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Thread: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

  1. #41
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Equally bad is when only a few fall into the "do not discuss" group, and the rest of the class ostracizes them. That can lead to wounds that never heal.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    Have you performed an extensive survey to verify this hypothesis, or did this come from your beliefs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Regarding the discussions of "promiscuous" behaviors, many parents view the world, or wish the world still was, the same as in their youth. However, the internet has changed all that. Kids can, and will, see intense things that can have a profound and lasting negative impact on them if they're not prepared. Unfortunately, parents and lawmakers don't always view the world of kids from its current and near future state.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    Have you performed an extensive survey to verify this hypothesis, or did this come from your beliefs?
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Equally bad is when only a few fall into the "do not discuss" group, and the rest of the class ostracizes them. That can lead to wounds that never heal.
    When I mentioned the hidden curriculum a few posts back it occurred to me that not every reader would be aware of what this referred to, so here is a short description, cribbed for your pleasure.

    The term “hidden curriculum” refers to an amorphous collection of “implicit academic, social, and cultural messages,” “unwritten rules and unspoken expectations,” and “unofficial norms, behaviours and values” of the dominant-culture context in which all teaching and learning is situated.
    Of note is the 'dominant-culture context' part, given that this relates - in the context of the current discussion - to the general binary perception of gender. At the School level, in Western cultures, this suggests that children will indeed learn that binary gender is normal and that anything other is not normal and to be oppressed. Those who are 'wounded' by not being seen as 'normal' often do carry that forward into adult life because the school space is ultimately a reflection of the wider social space.

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  4. #43
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post

    Have you performed an extensive survey to verify this hypothesis, or did this come from your beliefs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Regarding the discussions of "promiscuous" behaviors, many parents view the world, or wish the world still was, the same as in their youth. However, the internet has changed all that. Kids can, and will, see intense things that can have a profound and lasting negative impact on them if they're not prepared. Unfortunately, parents and lawmakers don't always view the world of kids from its current and near future state.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    Have you performed an extensive survey to verify this hypothesis, or did this come from your beliefs?
    I didn't need to.... it's been done. It's been shown to be one of the causes of adolescent suicide. Often it is why there are closet LBGQT+.
    See the Mayo Clinic's list of frequent triggers. It may be second to last on the list but that doesn't mean it's insignificant.
    https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...e/art-20044308

    dneal, either you truly weren't aware of this (that would be sad considering your level of awareness), you agree with DeSantis (oy...&#128580, or you thought this subject wasn't serious enough that you couldn't act snarky.
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    Last edited by Lloyd; May 10th, 2022 at 07:16 PM.
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  5. #44
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Were you being snarky to Bold?

    You didn’t raise suicide until the last reply. Why would I assume that’s what you were talking about? Similarly, am I to derive “LBGQT+” from “promiscuous”? That association seems a bit libelous to that community, and not one I would make.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  6. #45
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    I was being snarky because I don't think the statement is true.
    Regarding internet usage, here's from a quick look
    https://hickorystreetcounseling.com/...t-development/

    You didn't answer my question regarding your response, though. Why did you doubt my post? Didn't think internet viewing was impactful on youth, honest interest, or just to get into another battle?
    Last edited by Lloyd; May 10th, 2022 at 09:50 PM.
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  7. #46
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.

  9. #48
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.
    That was my reaction too, when Lloyd originally posted it.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Medievalist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I never had anyone tell me to like girls. I suspect that others are the same
    I never did either but even now, as an out Lesbian in a stable relationship, I still get people trying to convince me that I'm "wasting" my life, or asking me why I don't "try" a guy, or trying to fix me up with a guy even though they know I'm in a monogamous Lesbian relationship.

    Here's something to think about, if you're straight.

    The Heterosexual Questionnaire.

    It was devised as a teaching exercise for College students.
    👍👍 I’ve had people try to fix me up since I’m single. Hopefully their motivation is sincere.

  11. #50
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    dneal - I'm quite sincere in my belief that I think DeSantis is wrong. I'm quite sincere in my belief that it is cruel and bad for society to outlaw teaching the youth about sexuality. I think it's irresponsible for Americans to blame this as the cause of our weakened academics while knowing, and seemingly not caring, how low teachers get paid.
    Now, dneal, what in this do you sincerely believe?
    As you know, I also believe that you care less about the topics than you do about using the topics to try to challenge others' beliefs.
    Last edited by Lloyd; May 11th, 2022 at 01:43 PM.
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.
    That was my reaction too, when Lloyd originally posted it.
    Oh, this is pretty much my reaction to anything you write that touches on sincerity, honesty, or integrity.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.
    That was my reaction too, when Lloyd originally posted it.
    Oh, this is pretty much my reaction to anything you write that touches on sincerity, honesty, or integrity.
    And I'm the one who's triggered... lol!!!
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  15. #53
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.
    That was my reaction too, when Lloyd originally posted it.
    Oh, this is pretty much my reaction to anything you write that touches on sincerity, honesty, or integrity.
    And I'm the one who's triggered... lol!!!
    You still haven't stated your position on these issues. You've only raised the issue and then tried to taunt others.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  16. #54
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Others here are sincere in their opinions but you seem to be here to mess with them.
    That was my reaction too, when Lloyd originally posted it.
    Oh, this is pretty much my reaction to anything you write that touches on sincerity, honesty, or integrity.
    And I'm the one who's triggered... lol!!!
    It appear you don't understand the actual meaning of the term triggered. Interesting.

  17. #55
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    dneal - I'm quite sincere in my belief that I think DeSantis is wrong. I'm quite sincere in my belief that it is cruel and bad for society to outlaw teaching the youth about sexuality. I think it's irresponsible for Americans to blame this as the cause of our weakened academics while knowing, and seemingly not caring, how low teachers get paid.
    Now, dneal, what in this do you sincerely believe?
    As you know, I also believe that you care less about the topics than you do about using the topics to try to challenge others' beliefs.
    I don't attribute it to DeSantis. He signed the legislation, but the legislature passed it. I think talking about sexual topics of any sort to elementary students is inappropriate, personally; but I think voters certainly have a right to determine what will be taught in the education system they pay for and send their children to. If more progressive parents want to discuss sexual or gender issues to their children, that's certainly their prerogative.

    I think there are a lot of reasons for our weakened academics, and teacher's pay is certainly one of them. My property tax was ~ $1750 last year, and $1450 of it went to schools. The remaining $300 was distributed over 6 other categories (Fire, Roads, Library, General Revenue, etc...). Fire was the highest at $90. The money seems to be there, it's just not getting spent on teacher's salary. My sister in law has been a special-ed teacher for over 30 years, by the way.

    ----------

    Now for the last issue. This is a response specifically to Lloyd, and I'm not particularly inclined to respond to or argue with others that want to jump in.

    I will presume your question is in good faith (although I have reason not to), and this is the last time I intend to address it (there will be some reiteration):

    You can believe what you want, or you can believe what I say. I have a pretty thorough history of candor here. I have no reason to lie and I'm not going to argue about it. Yes, this is my perspective, but I'll try to be as objective about it as I can. I am aware others have a differing perspective, I know what most of those are, but I believe many of those are wrong and can cite the evidence for that - but I don't see the point at this time.

    I'm a natural skeptic. I question everything, to include (and maybe even particularly) my own opinions. That's why I enjoy hearing opposing views, challenging them to see how well they hold up, and having my own challenged. Although this part of the forum was usually not that busy, most topics were discussed by members acting like rational adults. Sure, it got a little heated on occasion, but all in all it was rational and respectful. I'll post links to those threads if you like.

    That changed with Trump, and got even worse with Covid. Maybe that's just coincidental with changing societal tension, main stream and social media, and other nonsense and not directly related to Trump and Covid. Don't really care, but those two topics are the ones that are the most heated here now. It is hyper-partisan.

    Given my nature, I asked a reasonable (and I thought innocent) question about the economic risk and danger of "lockdown" policies. Much to my surprise, that turned into a dumpster fire. I suddenly wanted old people to die. Apparently I still do, to some. Another similar thread was started here instead of in the lounge, and was full of intelligent discussion, aside from a few attempts at troublemaking. Mhosea, Dave, Ethernautrix, Dreck and many others who quit posting here as the nonsense and banal snipes increased.

    The "I can't fathom this election" exacerbated the issue. I didn't start that thread, and the flames were lit starting with the first response (2nd post). I was genuinely curious about the left-leaning objection to Trump, aside from the talking-point level of political sniping. Yes, he's an obnoxious orange asshole. But what about his policy? That turned into "he's a racist/mysoginist/whatever". I conceded that, and reiterated my question with essentially no answer. Just "can't you see he's a racist/mysoginist/whatever?!?!?!"

    Ok, I get the emotion and vitriol to some extent. I don't get how otherwise rational adults are unable to discuss difficult current events. The emotional responses still haven't stopped. The snide/vitriolic remarks still haven't stopped. I'm happy to cite many threads, and point out where they went off the rails (and who did it, because it's the same people). I welcome anyone pointing out where I was the culprit. They exist, and a few of them I even started.

    Initially I assumed that pointing out the hypocrisy and vitriol would allow "cooler heads to prevail". Clearly I was wrong. I tried escalation to deescalate. I noted early on that I would respond in kind - "don't be an asshole and I won't either". I tried mimicking the behavior, and I tried mocking. That didn't work either. I tried contrition, which failed as well and seemed to encourage some to be more vitriolic.

    So what was I left with? A forum where the reasonable people left, and the remainder consist of left-leaning groupthink focused on personalities and drama (as opposed to actual issues), particularly on some topics. A series of declarations of truth, where any contradictory position was "crazy", "conspiratorial", "Trumpist", or whatever slur seemed to apply. Certainly I could just give up and stop posting, but that's not my nature and this is "my" forum too. You mentioned something about challenging zealots. That's mainly what I'm left with. I realize I'm not going to change minds at this point, but I'm still not obligated to tolerate intolerance nor succumb to bullies who previously did not participate in this part of the forum. I can only treat it like a game at this point. "Doubles", as I noted earlier. I don't play to win or lose, just for the game itself. It's what Soldiers do when they're "hurrying up and waiting". I've done it for over 30 years. I'm pretty good at it, and it leads to a pretty thick skin.

    I still wish it were otherwise. I do desperately wish this forum returned to its pre-Trump state. But if others are going to prevent that then I'll deal with the forum as it is, posting (or not) as it suits me. I still follow the "Don't be an asshole and I won't either" rule. None of that is hypocritical. I've been perfectly clear on when and why I'll be a dick, and it's why you primarily see it in response to certain posts and/or posters. As an aside, I do find it amazing that others either don't see their own behavior as dick-ish or won't admit to it. That's hypocritical.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  18. #56
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    You still haven't stated your position on these issues. You've only raised the issue and then tried to taunt others.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    Dude, I'm addressing them in order. Gimme a break ferchrissakes.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    “A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.”
    WOPR

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  21. #58
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    It appear you don't understand the actual meaning of the term triggered. Interesting.
    Sure I do. One example is when someone gets so upset they scurry off to another section of the forum like a little bitch, to post their off-topic whinging where they expect to garner sympathy, in hopes it might make them feel like a martyr instead of a pariah.

    Just because you get triggered and wring your hands about everything from whether you should refer to yourself in 3rd person, yet another pen that you have problems with, or whether a gift arrived as soon as you wanted; doesn't mean everyone else does.

    You said you served in the NZ military, so I assume you understand about bitching (and by your posts over the years, I suspect you were a primary culprit). I've supervised or commanded thousands of you whiners. At a certain point, you don't care because they're not going to stop and it's irrelevant.

    So "go fuck yourself you miserable little shit" was not me being triggered, it was flatly stating in very clear terms my final position on the latest incessant hand-wringing you chose to subject us to, because I was no longer going to indulge your continuous weaseling.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

  22. #59
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    I've supervised or commanded thousands of you whiners.....

    So "go fuck yourself you miserable little shit" was not me being triggered, it was flatly stating in very clear terms my final position on the latest incessant hand-wringing you chose to subject us to, because I was no longer going to indulge your continuous weaseling.
    Firstly, you don't command anymore. Secondly, you blame many others' behaviors and specific world events for your own actions. A commander should be able to rise above the fog, not get enmeshed in it.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Never said I served in the NZ military. I guess facts aren't your strong suit either, along with poor impulse control, insincerity, lack of ethics and dishonesty. And look at all those naughty words. As Hari Seldon* stated 'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'. Personally I've always thought that excessive use of expletives in men was due to either low educational standard, or the need to compensate for something missing (usually a sense of manhood).



    *For those who don't read sci-fi, this is a character in the Foundation series by Isaac Asimov

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