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Thread: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    I saw screenshots of Maryland Public School's Comprehensive Health Education Framework, and some of the things seemed a little odd. This is what we're teaching in schools?

    I'm not a prude, and don't see anything wrong with "sex ed" (contraception, STI's, etc...) and reproductive biology in Jr. High and High School; but some of this seems a bit much for public schools to be taking on. Some of it seems like indoctrination, and now I understand why so many children are having questions about their own gender.

    Are these topics appropriate for elementary students (Pre-K onward)?

    Pre-K "Gender identity and expression
    K - Medicine Use
    2 - Alcohol, nicotine, vaping
    3 - How to use medicines correctly
    3 - Harmful effects of alcohol
    4 - Sexual orientation and/or romantic involvement
    5 - Suicide prevention
    6 - Depression
    6 - Addiction
    6 - Sex assigned at birth
    7 - (Middle school or Jr. High depending on the district, but seriously?) Identify solo, vaginal, anal and oral sex

    The link is HERE, and I'll post some screenshots of pages. The "Family Life and Human Sexuality" section begins on pg 21.

    Finish every day, and be done with it.
    You have done what you could - some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in, forget them as fast as you can, tomorrow is a new day.
    You shall begin it well and serenly, and with too high a spirit to be cumbered with your old nonsense.

    Emerson

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...


    Finish every day, and be done with it.
    You have done what you could - some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in, forget them as fast as you can, tomorrow is a new day.
    You shall begin it well and serenly, and with too high a spirit to be cumbered with your old nonsense.

    Emerson

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    I suspect that there is a strong correlation between this and the fact that your country is now mostly known for being litigious.

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    Junior Member Medievalist's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Not all people are straight
    Male
    White
    Cis-Gendered

    Not all families are white, or hetero, or have two parents.

    So if you're 5 and all the books you see at school, all the pictures in books, show white families with a male and a female, but you're mom is a single parent
    or your dad is a single parent
    Or you have two dads and no mom
    or you're Asian, or a PoC or Native American you're going to feel like Your Family Is Wrong, or Not a real family

    Or

    If you feel like you're in the wrong body or that because you have a "male" body but you like "female" activities or you feel like really, you're a boy but in a girl's body if you feel like you're broken

    What about those kids? Don't they deserve to know that they can make choices about how to be?

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    I never had anyone tell me to like girls. I suspect that others are the same

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Medievalist View Post
    Not all people are straight
    Male
    White
    Cis-Gendered

    Not all families are white, or hetero, or have two parents.

    So if you're 5 and all the books you see at school, all the pictures in books, show white families with a male and a female, but you're mom is a single parent
    or your dad is a single parent
    Or you have two dads and no mom
    or you're Asian, or a PoC or Native American you're going to feel like Your Family Is Wrong, or Not a real family

    Or

    If you feel like you're in the wrong body or that because you have a "male" body but you like "female" activities or you feel like really, you're a boy but in a girl's body if you feel like you're broken

    What about those kids? Don't they deserve to know that they can make choices about how to be?
    Equally bad is when only a few fall into the "do not discuss" group, and the rest of the class ostracizes them. That can lead to wounds that never heal.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Social construction and the hidden curriculum. Hopefully addressing the first will impact the second.

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    I don't have a problem with the issues themselves. One can be or do whatever they want (after the age of consent and/or majority).

    My biggest issue is that there aren't additional hours in the day, however, so something within the traditional education scheme would be getting shorted. Might explain why I discovered my son never learned the days of the months, for example.

    Some of the topics just seem weird. Teaching 3rd graders how to use medicines correctly? Seems a little early, and not necessarily the responsibility of the school system.

    Lastly are the controversial topics, where opinions can vary across a spectrum. I don't think it's the school's responsibility to address many of them, particularly at the ages they are introduced. A less controversial issue for an example would be a 1st grade class on "Santa doesn't exist". Some people may not practice that tradition, some may want their children to know it's a myth, and some may want to keep it for nostalgia or whatever reason. Those are parental decisions, in my mind. Yeah, it's not a perfect analogy and kids usually find out from their peers anyway; but let's not disregard the principle to pick at the example. Offer a better one if you prefer.

    Point being I can see enough parents pressuring their politicians to "ban" certain topics for certain ages; which is what my understanding of the Florida law is. "No introduction or discussion of these topics before age x...".

    Finish every day, and be done with it.
    You have done what you could - some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in, forget them as fast as you can, tomorrow is a new day.
    You shall begin it well and serenly, and with too high a spirit to be cumbered with your old nonsense.

    Emerson

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    Junior Member Medievalist's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I never had anyone tell me to like girls. I suspect that others are the same
    I never did either but even now, as an out Lesbian in a stable relationship, I still get people trying to convince me that I'm "wasting" my life, or asking me why I don't "try" a guy, or trying to fix me up with a guy even though they know I'm in a monogamous Lesbian relationship.

    Here's something to think about, if you're straight.

    The Heterosexual Questionnaire.

    It was devised as a teaching exercise for College students.

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    I don't have a problem with the issues themselves. One can be or do whatever they want (after the age of consent and/or majority).

    My biggest issue is that there aren't additional hours in the day, however, so something within the traditional education scheme would be getting shorted. Might explain why I discovered my son never learned the days of the months, for example.

    Some of the topics just seem weird. Teaching 3rd graders how to use medicines correctly? Seems a little early, and not necessarily the responsibility of the school system..
    It's basically the same thing you probably got: Don't take candy from strangers. Don't take someone else's medication. The document is written for and from the persepctive of educators, not parents.

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I never had anyone tell me to like girls....
    Yes you did.

    In our culture we are awash in the tyranny of a binary, heterosexual paradigm. We are so saturated with it that we often say, "No one tells me to be straight" when actually that is the farthest thing from the truth. We are told this in our families, in our churches, synogogues, and mosques, in our schools, in our books, in our peer conversations, in our music, in our relative networks, in our books, plays, theater and advertizing through all of media. We are told this with our toys and games. We are inundated with the message that heterosexuality is the preferred paradigm. I am in my sixties, and through my first twenty years I was told that this was in fact the only paradigm: that anything else was deviancy and sin, both to be wary of and ashamed of. And I grew up in a fairly liberal household of the times.

    But yes, most of us actually have a sexual orientation regardless of all this messaging, which I think was your point. My point is that heterosexuality has its axis reinforced in nearly every way. All the other identities and practices, many equally rooted in childhood and not caused by messaging, have to exist in opposition to this tyranny of the hetero paradigm. There are no identities, no behaviors, no inclinations, no confusions, no explorations that are new today to the human species that did not exist in the history of human societies and culture. Gender identity and sexual practices have ranged all over the place and have been fluid and difficult to package and label and contain, especially for those who react to difference with fear.

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    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Regarding the discussions of "promiscuous" behaviors, many parents view the world, or wish the world still was, the same as in their youth. However, the internet has changed all that. Kids can, and will, see intense things that can have a profound and lasting negative impact on them if they're not prepared. Unfortunately, parents and lawmakers don't always view the world of kids from its current and near future state.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Regarding the discussions of "promiscuous" behaviors, ...
    I'm curious, what are you quoting here?

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    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Look at grades 7-8 in the last table

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Medievalist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I never had anyone tell me to like girls. I suspect that others are the same
    I never did either but even now, as an out Lesbian in a stable relationship, I still get people trying to convince me that I'm "wasting" my life, or asking me why I don't "try" a guy, or trying to fix me up with a guy even though they know I'm in a monogamous Lesbian relationship.

    Here's something to think about, if you're straight.

    The Heterosexual Questionnaire.

    It was devised as a teaching exercise for College students.
    OMG! The Heterosexual Questionnaire is phenomenal!

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Look at grades 7-8 in the last table

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    I did. I did not see the word "promiscuity" anywhere. But maybe I missed it. Did I? Or where you making a point about a term (and not quoting something)? I only ask because I am an educator and have to deal with these matters. The materials we use would never use that term for sexual activity.

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    And this is why the American education system is the best in the world.

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    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Look at grades 7-8 in the last table

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    I did. I did not see the word "promiscuity" anywhere. But maybe I missed it. Did I? Or where you making a point about a term (and not quoting something)? I only ask because I am an educator and have to deal with these matters. The materials we use would never use that term for sexual activity.
    I just didn't quote the document as it's over several regions. I was talking about the sexual activity discussions. They are more diverse than what I was taught as well as sounding more explicit. Given that I was raised in the suburbs and that I'm 58 now, I think it's justified that they learn this despite my not learning it.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    And this is why the American education system is the best in the world.
    We attained or low ranking before all of this was added. America lack appreciation of teachers. It lacks adequate support for the sciences, mathematics. Look at the salaries of most middle and high school teachers. Any good mathematician is going to go into industry over teaching just to make more money.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: I understand the Florida "don't say gay" law now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Medievalist View Post
    Not all people are straight
    Male
    White
    Cis-Gendered

    Not all families are white, or hetero, or have two parents.

    So if you're 5 and all the books you see at school, all the pictures in books, show white families with a male and a female, but you're mom is a single parent
    or your dad is a single parent
    Or you have two dads and no mom
    or you're Asian, or a PoC or Native American you're going to feel like Your Family Is Wrong, or Not a real family

    Or

    If you feel like you're in the wrong body or that because you have a "male" body but you like "female" activities or you feel like really, you're a boy but in a girl's body if you feel like you're broken

    What about those kids? Don't they deserve to know that they can make choices about how to be?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Look at grades 7-8 in the last table

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    I did. I did not see the word "promiscuity" anywhere. But maybe I missed it. Did I? Or where you making a point about a term (and not quoting something)? I only ask because I am an educator and have to deal with these matters. The materials we use would never use that term for sexual activity.
    I just didn't quote the document as it's over several regions. I was talking about the sexual activity discussions. They are more diverse than what I was taught as well as sounding more explicit. Given that I was raised in the suburbs and that I'm 58 now, I think it's justified that they learn this despite my not learning it.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    I see now. And I agree.

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    Lloyd (May 9th, 2022)

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