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Thread: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I fully believe him and truly cherish his former honesty. He tried to bring what he could to the FP world, a world that he has whole-heartedly embraced longer than most of us. He boldly used his business as a means of speaking out. Risky, but he likely felt that inaction is an action.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I'm curious how he'll be at the Commonwealth pen show.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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  5. #23
    FPG Donor ♕ KrazyIvan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I only found out about the whole thing when Goulet Pens posted on their Instagram account. Admittedly I have stayed away from Reddit. I found out two inks had racist or antisemitic connotations and thought those were the only inks to be renamed. Apparently, it is extending far more into the brand. I think it was unnecessary but Mr. Tardiff can do what he wants with his products. I am happy with my bottle of Apache Sunset and being from the desert southwestern US (just a couple of hours from the Mescalero Apache Reservation) and don't really understand the need to change the name.
    Fountain Pen Sith Lord | Daakusaido | Everything in one spot

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  7. #24
    Senior Member kia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I have not always agreed with the politics (sometimes it worked, many times not), but I have always loved the inks. So, I shall stay with them.

    For good or bad, what irritates me most about all of this is, the torch crowds who lurked, and the turn of the back by so many who supposedly were supporters in the past. So feeble and fickle are we. Much of this could have been handled better without the frenzy thrashings on public forums. Nathan and I are not on the same page politically, perhaps, but I'm not going to chase him with a pitchfork because Chicken Little just ran by a street over. I almost fell in, but I clawed my way out of that mess. I had to think, who is so pure out there that there will be no consequences for them in life's challenges? It is not I.

    By the way, missed you all. I peek in now and again in between dr appts and living it up on disability. Hope you are all well.

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by kia View Post
    By the way, missed you all. I peek in now and again in between dr appts and living it up on disability. Hope you are all well.
    Welcome back! If you have the interest and stamina, join in as often as you can. bouncers.gif
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Senior Member kia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kia View Post
    By the way, missed you all. I peek in now and again in between dr appts and living it up on disability. Hope you are all well.
    Welcome back! If you have the interest and stamina, join in as often as you can. bouncers.gif
    I will. I felt lucky to have remembered my password, though.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    This whole thing has been interesting to me.

    Independent of the labeling/messages I'm lukewarm to Noodlers inks despite having probably a dozen different ones now including "the infamous blue ink whose discussion use to be banned on FPN." I love the color of that particular ink, and have never really had a problem with it although I'm also very careful about exactly where it goes(right now in an eyedroppered Preppy).

    Some of the others, though, I run into things like the color I get not matching what the reviews say. I can remember also being excited to get a bottle of Liberty's Elysium, inking it up in a pen, going to a meeting where I was taking notes in an Black 'n Red notebook(Oxford Optik) and finding that I had a mess because the ink was taking 10+ minutes to dry on "good" paper. Still, though, I value the special properties of some. Rome Burning is one of the inks I wanted for a while and couldn't find in stock-it didn't disappoint and I was glad to get a yellow/gold ink that was actually useable even though all of the "color change" inks(Rome Burning, House Divided, General of the Armies) seem a bit cantankerous and their muddy appearance in the bottle bothers me. Every 6 months or so, I'll ink a pen with Black Swan in English Roses(something I did again about two weeks ago) and remember how much I like that ink-more so than the Australian Roses version.

    Politically-I'd call Nathan more of an extreme libertarian than I am, but I do tend to lean that way, so his politics really have never bothered me. I'll leave it there.

    With his labels-I really appreciate and respect the amount of thought and detail that goes into them. They can keep me busy for a while reading them and trying to make sense of everything on them.

    So, that leads me to the horns on the labels. I admit ignorance to it being a Jewish stereotype and inherently an antisemitic image, and did interpret him as just generically calling Bernake a "bad guy." In a broader sense, I suspect many of us who aren't Jewish say or do antisemitic things purely out of ignorance and with no malice intended. I've been grateful for a VERY good Jewish friend who, a few times over the years, has told me "Hey, I know you didn't mean anything bad by this, but it's bad because of(reason)". I am REALLY appreciative of this particular friend approaching from a default position of assuming ignorance on my part and not malice. In fact, I started point-blank asking this friend after an incident at another website(car related) where I criticized a member for attempting to negotiate an agreed price AFTER the work was completed because he'd decided after signing the estimate that it was too expensive. This particular member-who is just a nasty individual for a lot of reasons-then said I was being antisemitic for accusing him of being stingy and for negotiating and saying it was wrong just because he was Jewish, something of which I was not even aware until he said it in that thread. That's a big side-track, though.

    I say all of that to say that I can see two sides to this. For one, Nathan is such a student of history that it seems strange to me that he wouldn't know all of the symbolism that these could represent. The other side of it, though, is that he could genuinely be ignorant and not have intended malice. For now, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt of the latter.

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  15. #28
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Thanks, bunn. I agree with your insights here. The one time I did come across Nathan responding to this was his quick inkneedslastforever video where he said "I am not anti-semitic," etc. The problem I saw with that was that that was not really the charge being laid against his labels. The problem was in the imagery, not in his intentions or character. He seemed to be defending himself against a charge that was not the core of the matter. Anti-semitism is still anti-semitism even when it is done from ignorance. The damage on the viewer/receiver from the imagery is still the same. Many of us, myself included, are reluctant to admit, especially publically, that we are ignorant and that we have made a mistake from our ignorance--and then fully own responsibility for that error without blaming others or trying to share some of the responsibility on others. Our egos fight very hard against this. And this is what I mean: even N Tardif's "apology" doesn't fully do this (in my reading): I just don't see the typical language of "I did not understand, but now I do." He gets pretty close to that, but then I sense some backpedalling and spite (rather than contrition). And then to quickly move on and say that "actions" (label changes) are more important than words without referencing any of the historical American issues of the mistreatment of, coopting of, and fetishization (for profit of) various minority groups in our history makes me uneasy about the depth of his understanding and acknowledgement.

    Tardif has, indeed, spoken often of American historical events, but they have been of a kind. He has not, to my knowledge, spoken of or commemorated any of the well-known abuses in our history of the dominant white European culture toward minorities or the indigenous civilizations that were here before his noble patriots arrived and began taking the land from the locals.

    Sure, he makes and sells ink and sells some pens. He is not a professional history and doesn't write history. But he actually promotes his view of certain hisotrical movements and figures a good bit, and he commemorates this point of view frequently on his labels. So, it does seem fair to raise these concerns regarding the marketing of his products.

    I appreciate the feedback that has been posted here to my question. It will be interesting to see if he makes further public comment about any of this.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by manoeuver View Post
    I saw the apology, hadn't seen the renaming of so many inks til this thread.

    (opinion) Apologizing to a mob is always a mistake. Nothing is ever enough. Happens over and over.

    You sit tight and don't say shit. It blows over. These people have no real principles except bloodlust and exercise of power. They move on.

    It's three minutes, remember?

    Renaming and discontinuing inks in response to a woke mob portends failure and doom.

    There will be little praise for Nathan for buckling, if any. Just more disdain from people who were never going to accept him anyway.

    People who have never built anything in their lives and never will. Nihilists.

    Pity.
    I tend to agree with much of this however a sincere apology is honorable and I respect him even more (and stocked up on some original label bottles).

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  19. #30
    FPG Donor ♕ Chrissy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I've now been to Instagram and read all about the reasons for the change. I personally prefer the new ink names and whatever the reasons behind the changes they are Nathan's reasons and his are the only reasons that count. There is now a worldwide attempt to steer away from any possible perceived discrimination of any part of the worldwide community and that surely is a good thing. Words that we may all have used to think of as simple descriptive words are now being removed from dictionaries and no longer used in communities. Even animal names such as pygmy hippo or marmoset are considered to be within this group.

    Of those few Noodler's inks I've tried I haven't experienced any problems, but they aren't as easy to obtain here in the UK as they are in the US. However, though my bottles may be old I've always thought their labels were really attractive. Maybe the tall bottles can be a bit unstable for a clumsy person, but there are some worse shaped bottles than Noodler's. I particularly like Bad Blue Heron and Burma Road Brown. I even have a part bottle of Bay State Blue that I was given but I'm concerned about which pens to use it in after reading about it on here. I've almost finished a small sample of Walnut that I also liked.

    Welcome back kia. Hope you are well too.
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    It's ironic, that someone as anti-fascist/ anti-totalitarian as Nathan Tardif be branded as an anti-semite.
    That's cancel culture for ya. It's probably festering, unhappy folks looking for an excuse to bash someone more than anything else. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a pro-freedom, anti-fascist person is unlikely to be antisemitic. Cancel culture bashes Israel a lot more than they bash Mr. Tardiff, so it's not like its adherents are in a position to criticize his ink labels.

    I like Noodler's inks, at least the few I have used, and will continue to buy them. If people don't like Nathan, nobody is forcing them to buy his products.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    Even animal names such as pygmy hippo or marmoset are considered to be within this group.
    What is wrong with "pygmy hippo" and "marmoset"?

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    Even animal names such as pygmy hippo or marmoset are considered to be within this group.
    What is wrong with "pygmy hippo" and "marmoset"?

    What's wrong with just using a color's hexadecimal color code instead of calling it names?

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    FPG Donor ♕ Chrissy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    Even animal names such as pygmy hippo or marmoset are considered to be within this group.
    What is wrong with "pygmy hippo" and "marmoset"?
    The word "pygmy" is now considered as an offensive word that cannot be used in normal culture. I meant the example to mean that in the animal worlds it comes before hippo as well as marmoset and needs changing. So there is nothing at all wrong with marmoset or hippo come to that.
    Regards, Chrissy | My Review Blog: inkyfountainpens

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    Senior Member Wile E Coyote's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wile E Coyote View Post
    ...hexadecimal....
    That's disgusting!
    But you might hurt the ink's feelings if you label it with names.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I am truly confused by some of the name changes.

    Ottoman Empire was dissolved during WWI and there's no Shah in Iran that I know of.
    Or why would he change the anti-fascist label... Were the fascists offended too?

    To me it seems like some totalitarian regimes have managed to muzzle free speech.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    I am truly confused by some of the name changes.

    Ottoman Empire was dissolved during WWI and there's no Shah in Iran that I know of.
    Or why would he change the anti-fascist label... Were the fascists offended too?

    To me it seems like some totalitarian regimes have managed to muzzle free speech.
    Fascists have feelings too.

  29. #38
    Senior Member FredRydr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Feelings? I never got much of a feeling for these inks since the Baystate Blue fiasco.

  30. #39
    Senior Member Wile E Coyote's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by FredRydr View Post
    Feelings? I never got much of a feeling for these inks since the Baystate Blue fiasco.
    BSB fiasco, did I miss something?

    I have it in a dedicated Jinhao and it's my favorite obtainable eye searing blue.

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    Senior Member AzJon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    I am truly confused by some of the name changes.

    Ottoman Empire was dissolved during WWI and there's no Shah in Iran that I know of.
    Or why would he change the anti-fascist label... Were the fascists offended too?

    To me it seems like some totalitarian regimes have managed to muzzle free speech.
    I honestly think its because Nathan has no idea why anyone would be offended by the original bottles so went full "scorched-earth" on his lineup. Its ham-fisted, reactive, and shows that he really does not understand nor care about the fact that he, twice, got in trouble for his inks.

    Regarding Anti-Fascist Blue, he changed it because people in the modern era (the Antifa boogeyman) were buying it thinking that Nathan was taking a political stand against the president-at-the-time. He made a video to let people know that he was honoring the "real" anti-fascists.

    Whether or not you agree with either of those statements or groups is irrelevant. At the end of the day, Nathan has a very particular view of history that fetishizes the past. A past full of incorruptible heroes that did no wrong and were perfect in their creation and action.

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