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Thread: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Since neither me nor my wife, both in our mid to late 50s, thought that the horns relationship to anti-Semitism with long gone, I decided to do a web search. I thought this was interesting-
    Moses was often depicted with two horns on his head as a result of the Latin mis-rendering of the verb “sent forth beams” (karan) in*Exodus 34:35*as “grew horns.” (A horn is a*keren.) This image, which was widely portrayed in art of the Middle Ages by artists including Michelangelo and Donatello in Italy, led to the widespread notion that all Jews had devilish horns.
    from https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...e-jewish-body/ I was surprised that it's still used. I assume it's our having grown up in a Jewish-dense region and now in a fairly mixed region (Massachusetts). Sadly, the more common antisemitic slurs abound (words and swastikas).

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    First, hello fellow Commonwealth resident.

    I'd completely forgotten about that common mis-transalation. I'd never heard of it before, but my wife pointed it out when we were discussing some of Michelangelo's art.

    That particular art with Bernanke needed to go. I preferred the names for "Navajo Turquoise" and "Apache Sunset" but I can understand those changes. But I don't think I understand the changes for names like "Rome Burning" or "Ottoman Azure."
    Last edited by SlowMovingTarget; May 20th, 2022 at 09:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Isn't this an azure ottoman?


    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
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    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by SlowMovingTarget View Post

    First, hello fellow Commonwealth resident.
    👋


    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Isn't this an azure ottoman?
    It is indeed, not the least bit offensive.
    "The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here..." -- Abraham Lincoln, 1863

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by AzJon View Post


    I really have no idea why Nathan changed all of the ink names. Honestly, it feels reactionary and heavy handed in a "oh yeah? Well then I'll just chang ALL OF IT THEN!" as if to spite his face by cutting off his nose.

    Sure did manage to bring out the anti-PC police though, so maybe that was his goal: bring out the Whataboutists to dampen and soften the seriousness of the bottle imagery with constant refrains of "oh yeah? Well, what about...", creating false equivalences to somehow redeem putting horns on Jewish folks twice.

    But, if we want to analyze the sentiment of "where do we stop?", a good starting point may be to listen to any group that has, some within living memory, been oppressed, thrown into a concentration camp, or had an attempted genocide carried out to say that enough is enough when it comes to images and words that hearken back to that oppression.
    Well said. Thank you.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post

    Don't you think we are going too far with "offensive" words? Why do we give so much power to them?
    Language is full of power. It is true that it is mightier than the sword. Language is so inherently powerful that children learn to weaponize it early in their development. I believe that sometimes unnecessary or trivial offense is taken from words, but that language is a powerful tool of oppression, hegemony, and many forms of injury and harm is hardly deniable. Cultural values and laws and attitudes and biases and prejudices and injustices (and even religions) are all communicated, encoded, perpetuated, and at times enshrined in language (words). Words are not inconsequential things.
    My questioning is do we let words attain/ affect us, by giving away our personal power?
    It's more of a spiritual question.....
    I see what you mean. Whether a crime or injustice actually traumatizes an individual is somewhat determined by the nature of the victim, sure. But for a society or a culture to decide what is right or proper as a practice has little to do with the spiritual capability of the victim to mitigate the pain. And besides that, the marketplace of buying and selling is not a spiritual arena.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Can a group of Asian Americans complain about the color "yellow"? Can an Indigenous American group complain about the color "red"? When there isn't any bad intent, but word of mouth sees and spreads unintentional hidden messages, is it the moral obligation to remove the label or is a good explanation enough? I should state that I don't know anything about Nathan's initial response; did he fully explain his rationale for the label?

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Since neither me nor my wife, both in our mid to late 50s, thought that the horns relationship to anti-Semitism with long gone, I decided to do a web search. I thought this was interesting-
    Moses was often depicted with two horns on his head as a result of the Latin mis-rendering of the verb “sent forth beams” (karan) in*Exodus 34:35*as “grew horns.” (A horn is a*keren.) This image, which was widely portrayed in art of the Middle Ages by artists including Michelangelo and Donatello in Italy, led to the widespread notion that all Jews had devilish horns.
    from https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...e-jewish-body/ I was surprised that it's still used. I assume it's our having grown up in a Jewish-dense region and now in a fairly mixed region (Massachusetts). Sadly, the more common antisemitic slurs abound (words and swastikas).

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    Very interesting. I did not know this. Thanks for sharing it.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Can a group of Asian Americans complain about the color "yellow"? Can an Indigenous American group complain about the color "red"?
    You mean *all* uses of red, as in "Sheaffer Skrip Red"?

    Or do you mean in something like the "Washington Red Skins"?

    I don't think that anyone is objecting, too, say *all* uses of horns, or halos, or red, or yellow, or Apache. But, yes, *some* uses we need to be more cognizant about, and more conscientious. *Some,* not all. Again, no one is telling Mr Tardif what he *must* title his product. He is free, within the law, to title his products whatever he wants. Then, subsequently, consumers in the marketplace are free to respond, within the law, in any manner they see fit. That is the freedom of the marketplace.

    When people complain about consumers taking exception to a brand (for whatever reason), I see it as mostly sour grapes. There is no ethical or moral obligation for any consumer to spend a single penny on Noodler's products (I do, by the way). Consumers also are free to change their minds about brands or products on any whim or reason that passes through their brain. There is no "better" or "worse" reason for buying a product, nor for declining to purchase. Heck, there are people who complain that Noodler's bottles are too full and don't buy them for that reason! That's a head scratcher to me, but, hey, it's as legitimate as my reason for not buying more JHerbin (squat bottles suck).

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Can a group of Asian Americans complain about the color "yellow"? Can an Indigenous American group complain about the color "red"? When there isn't any bad intent, but word of mouth sees and spreads unintentional hidden messages, is it the moral obligation to remove the label or is a good explanation enough? I should state that I don't know anything about Nathan's initial response; did he fully explain his rationale for the label?

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    Everyone wants nuance, no one wants to apply it.

    Again, stop whatabouting pointless strawmen examples. No native american gives a damn about the color red, but context is important. Is "red" offensive? No. Its a color. Is "Redskin" or "Red Indians" offensive? Sure is. Why? Because "Redskin" was the term used when Native Americans were actively hunted by frontiersmen and their "red skinned" body parts were used as proof of kill. A person could make quite a bit of money, for the time, indiscriminately killing Native Americans.

    So no, a group of Native Americans aren't suddenly going to start saying "red" is offensive. Not if it isn't attached to other offensive words or images.

    Same goes with yellow.

    As far as what to do? I can't imagine a scenario where a reasonable and good person, upon learning that something they made or are making can be seen as racist or hate-speech would not simply change the label or name. Unless, of course, that person lacks empathy enough to understand why that's a problem. Or they don't care. Or, worst case, they intentionally put hate-speech/symbols on their product.

    This is not a difficult concept.

    We do it all the time. A non-offensive example just occurred to me, because it happened when I was living in Germany. When I moved to Germany, I was single. As a single man, I would flirt at bars or coffee shops or around the university. I got some really weird reactions, initially. At first I thought it was my accent, but it turns out everyone thought I was married. Why? Well, I had this ring that I had owned for years that I wore on my right ring finger and it turns out that, in Germany and other countries, a ring on the right hand is where you wear a wedding band not the left hand like in the States. So I switched ring fingers (or more often just went without the ring) and my attempts improved.

    Had trouble in a siituation I thought was true ---> learned a different truth ---> made corrections ---> no more trouble.

    Simple.

    Beyond all that, can someone like Nathan, Champion of the Inivisible Hand of the Free Market, really be mad that the Market is demanding change? Should he not revel in being able to actively participate in market forces at work?

    Edit: I'll give you another personal example. I have a shirt that looks like a Superman shirt, but instead of the "S" it says "Frybread Power". I should mention at this point that I'm part Native American with family still on tribal lands. My family got me this shirt because A) Smoke Signals is one of my favorite movies and the main character wears the same shirt and B) they thought it was hilarious (so do I). So, I get my shirt and wear it around when I was visiting family. When I got home, near different tribes and reservations, I got a less-that-stellar response because I don't look particularly Native, at least not compared to folks in my area. I still have the shirt, but I don't wear it around. I have every right to, but in my hometown, it was seen as offensive. Easy change. I'll wear it when I'm with family and near my tribe.

    Side note: the shirt was even bought at the cultural center. Context is king.
    Last edited by AzJon; May 21st, 2022 at 09:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    The Boston Pen Show will be energized if Nathan attends this year.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by AzJon View Post
    Everyone wants nuance, no one wants to apply it.
    Thank you for a stellar post, Jon.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by AzJon View Post
    Beyond all that, can someone like Nathan, Champion of the Inivisible Hand of the Free Market, really be mad that the Market is demanding change? Should he not revel in being able to actively participate in market forces at work?
    My wife's take on the whole situation shared your sentiment. "The market's changed and won't bear him using his products for the same political speech he used to. He needs to suck it up and adapt." She sees the name and art changes as the correct steps.
    "The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here..." -- Abraham Lincoln, 1863

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Unlurk mode

    Thank you for this thread.

    I was lucky to buy some remaining bottles of Noodler's ink before the boycott. The outspoken "community" mob [1] had influence over the silent majority. The market spoke with plenty of out of stock flags. The renaming choices which I surmise spun from the distributor, Luxury Brands, was, I believe existential, hopefully averting the snowball of complete retailer abandonment (imagine: Tardiff Inks, OEM white label.) Does Nathan really have a clue on marketing and reputation management? I think his focus has been ink, pens and dispensing his view of history.

    What I find disturbing in this whole fiasco is the power of the mechanism (social media) and speed in which observations and commentary morph into diverse unintended consequences. Quicker than pen on paper, it's like a bad game of Telephone as threads spawned beyond the original offense. How do you keep up? [2] It is easy to be reactive with black/white "brevity" thinking and not bother with investing further. Running a simple image search on "Noodler's Bernanke" shows different images depending on color, which I guess would be evidence of an inconsistent anti-semite? (behavior vs person) [3] Once minds are made up, few explore further lest they be placed on the wrong side of the "community" [1] Anyone linked to the 'witch'(es), better watch out! [4]

    However distasteful, it was an educational moment to learn that Winston Churchill is despised by the Desi people, worst than Stalin in genocide. [5] I have a lot to learn. Being sensitive and considerate to others is a valuable life skill but finding balance is a work in progress. Language is living and I think words/imagery can always find flexible purchase to be subjectively offensive to any person(s), be they colors, pronouns, new acronyms, across time, @#$!1k23.

    A few more incidents like this and brands may go the way of Sailor, color by number.

    Wait, is there a Sailor Ink 666?

    [1] Try simple arithmetic: "Community" = Active users engaged with the issue (posting, commenting, up/down voting, likes, shares, etc) divided by the total number of users in the community. Not a formula I ascribe to: which community? (Reddit, Instagram, FPN, FPGeeks, etc) and can individual users speak for themselves?
    [2] https://tokyoinklings.com/episodes/057/
    [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundam...ribution_error
    [4] https://youtu.be/OVgiddpMh5o
    [5] https://old.reddit.com/r/fountainpen...w_antisemitic/

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Good, bad, ugly, and everything in between hasn't looked at the fact that Nathan's livelihood is quite in danger. The places that sold/supplied his inks shutting him out so quickly certainly has had an impact on the customers, so I'm sure it has hurt Nathan quite a bit as well. He's recognized his shortcomings, he's gone further than was necessary in making changes, but it really doesn't mean a whole lot when the product cannot be moved from manufacture to market. I'm glad I have a good supply of inks, but I do think this has gone a bit far to actually be near to the point of ruining a career completely. Noodler's Ink is a one-man operation, after all. Does Nathan Tardif deserve to lose his livelihood and career over this? Some will say yes, some will say no (me included), and some really don't give a damn. I do, though.

    Our actions have consequences, no matter what side of an issue we're on - or how far away from it we may stand. Maybe I care because no one gave a damn once upon a time ago, and it altered my life completely. Or maybe it was the stories my mother read and taught me which she didn't believe in for herself hoping I would be better. So, yeah. I see it all crumbling down and I'm sure I'll be buried by it all, too, but I still care about us all, and our right to be. I do not believe in a right to destroy others. But as today has shown, there is no balance. I just have to keep trying to be compassionate, to all. Otherwise, there is no room for me, either.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I wish Nathan made a video explaining his motivations and choice of symbols for the two labels which initially triggered this landslide. Sadly, social media would rather "burn the witch" than accept any alternative justification for the meaning of the symbols.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    I wish Nathan made a video explaining his motivations and choice of symbols for the two labels which initially triggered this landslide. Sadly, social media would rather "burn the witch" than accept any alternative justification for the meaning of the symbols.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    I'm pretty sure that he has explained in a video. I watched it. I'll look for it.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Here is one video that he posted. It is short, and he is miffed. I take his point to be, "Don't you see that since I admire these other Jewish economists that I am not an anti-Semite?" https://youtu.be/fhg7M56j-co

    There don't seem to be as many videos on his channel anymore. I seem to recall another video on the topic, but I may be mistaken. What do I know. He also says to see the start of his Bay State Blue video for more on his economic point of view.

    Here: https://youtu.be/HOws7QsdQMM In this video, at the start, he asserts that no holierthanthou internet mobs will ever get him to cancel Bay State Blue and that he will make it until "the day he dies." He was clearly being defiant in response to criticisms about the quality of the ink. He starts the vid with a few points about the importance of consumer choice that he read asbout in the Friedmans' book.

    I have watched every Tardif video for a decade. I like several of his inks, and I find his videos entertaining. But he can sound self-righteous to a fault; humility, in these videos, is not a strong suit of the man. Sounds like he got some push back on his ink label, which he dismissed (basically) with the "if I did not mean it that way then it doesn't matter and let me name things how I want and let others buy it if they want" attitude (these are my words). Turns out that the marketplace is more complicated than that now, especially for online retailers whose customers spend a lot of time online in pen forums (sub-reddits) and the contraversy blew up in those fora. Turns out that there are a fair number of persons who have never appreciated Mr. Tardif's political jammering in his videos (he is sneering at times), and the ethics of capitalism have been getting fresh review and some redefinition over the past few years. My take is that Mr. Tardif's view of the economy and the ethics of the marketplace are being challenged by changing consciousness in some of the consumers in his market segment.

    Change happens.

    But, yes, a lengthier video on the topic (or letter) would be interesting. But his Instagram post on the topic said that he would rather show actions than words, so I am not sure that we will hear much more. But what do I know.
    Last edited by TSherbs; May 24th, 2022 at 08:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I wish he'd change the images on those two boxes without changing the message he wants to make. I hate silencing his voice. If you don't like the image, either don't buy the ink or let the bottle's excess ink run over the label. He should sell it with a basic white label that has the naming AND a sticker of his preferred label. I don't agree with some of his messages, but he seems a very moral person based on all of my interactions with him (a total of many hours on the phone and in person).

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    After more than a decade of recondite and unapologetic business practices, Mr. Tardiff has met his FAFO moment.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

  36. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jon Szanto For This Useful Post:

    AzJon (May 25th, 2022), Marsilius (May 26th, 2022), TSherbs (May 24th, 2022)

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