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Thread: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    I wish he'd change the images on those two boxes without changing the message he wants to make. I hate silencing his voice. If you don't like the image, either don't buy the ink or let the bottle's excess ink run over the label. He should sell it with a basic white label that has the naming AND a sticker of his preferred label. I don't agree with some of his messages, but he seems a very moral person based on all of my interactions with him (a total of many hours on the phone and in person).

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    I like his voice, too. And I love the full bottles!

    He could be a very moral person, but still have a stubborn blind spot on how market labels can convey messages, even unintentionally, that operate beyond the manufacturer's wishes or control. But he is a proud manufacturer.

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    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I believe his business (inks and pens) and his form of self-expression are one. While the Woke and PC movements are essential, social media's ability to rapidly spread and distort it are killing many forms of expression (ask any comedian). The behaviors that these movements vilify are in need of being acknowledged, but the rampant abuse by social media to over amplify and misinterpret statements is taking away the freedom of speech.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I'm new here, but I believe this thread has become something that should be in Politics, Religion, and Society. Perhaps that's where it should have been to begin with.

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    I believe his business (inks and pens) and his form of self-expression are one. While the Woke and PC movements are essential, social media's ability to rapidly spread and distort it are killing many forms of expression (ask any comedian). The behaviors that these movements vilify are in need of being acknowledged, but the rampant abuse by social media to over amplify and misinterpret statements is taking away the freedom of speech.
    There is virtually nothing to disagree with* in this sentiment. The most important factor, though, is the acknowledgment of the times we are living in. Mr. Tardiff prides himself on being a good student of economics (and, one assumes, business practices), but anyone running a business must understand the climate they are operating in. His inability to read the room, if you will, has potentially led to, at the very least, a comeuppance.

    Missing in the discussion here are periodic reports/comments** from Rachel Goulet regarding their ongoing discussions with Mr. Tardiff. She and her husband Brian, of Goulet Pen Company (possibly his longest-running clients and likely a very big source of sales) had put in efforts to illuminate the wider situation for him and to give him some tools to help keep his brand on track and in tune with a contemporary audience. The degree to which he would not, or could not, accept such guidance, offered by friends, may be reflected in the current situation. Hubris cuts multiple ways.



    *(It should be noted that Mr. Tardiff's "freedom of speech" is not being "taken away". He may still label his inks as he sees fit, as well as make his rambling dialogs in print and video. His freedom to do that is balanced by the freedom to counter those manifestations in discussion and the marketplace. Lenny Bruce understood this very well.)

    **(These comments were in discussions on the Pen Addict slack channel, where a very large amount of... intense commentary on the situation took place.)
    Last edited by Jon Szanto; May 24th, 2022 at 09:11 PM.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I don't believe Nathan is acting out of hubris, but of principles. He's never pursued the mighty dollar (overly low price per ounce inks that aren't mass produced in just a few varieties). I admire his integrity.. until the web's mob-mentality piled on him and some of his distributors (ones I won't shop with anymore) ceased carrying his inks. That's like a bookseller suddenly refusing to sell certain books to appease some inane throng of haters.

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    Last edited by Lloyd; May 24th, 2022 at 09:48 PM.
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Unfortunately, Nathan angrily showed the book/ economists whose policies he 100% (and no less) supports, without explaining why he detests Bernanke and Volcker. None of the legion are going to expend any effort to potentially go against their group's herd mentality. He was no more was acting antisemitically than the church in Rome is by displaying Michaelangelo's Moses statue. Can horns no longer represent anything but antisemitic sentiments? I used to draw horns on photos of people I disliked when I was a kid.... was I an antisemite?

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I hope your friend weathers the storm and learns new ways to sail those same seas.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    I hope your friend weathers the storm and learns new ways to sail those same seas.
    Friend or not (I don't consider him a friend, just a member in this community that I've interacted with a fair bit and I fully respect), my wishes for him are that he, not only weathers the storm, but regains his voice in some manner. I appreciate his non-corporate passion.

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    Last edited by Lloyd; May 24th, 2022 at 11:47 PM.
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    The conversation between freedom of expression and “offensive” imagery (intended or not) has limits to it. The format of a forum, makes it almost impossible and frankly exhausting to analyze different angles of this subject.

    @Azjon made a valid point:

    Had trouble in a siituation I thought was true ---> learned a different truth ---> made corrections ---> no more trouble.
    If I am to go to a community/ country and someone points out to me, an unintended faux pas. I will bow willingly. That’s common sense.

    However,

    Several years ago, Charlie Hebdo, a satirical newspaper in France published the now infamous Prophet caricatures.

    In 2015 the artists/writers were massacred.

    If they had kept quiet, they would be alive and everyone would have been safe. And no one had been offended. But in the end they were silenced.

    Some of the inks that are changing names, honour/ commemorate events that celebrate human resilience in face of totalitarianism: Tiananmen / Park Red etc.


    Which bring me to the next point:

    We often buy pens made by countries that represent political repression, mass incarceration and cultural genocide.
    No one seems to be offended by that. Granted it doesn’t mean the pen maker is participating in said atrocity, however, it begs a moment of reflexion.

    Recently I was ready to pay an arm and leg for a vintage German pen. Yet they were produced under the 3rd Reisch. I brushed that argument aside.
    Coincidentally I saw a documentary on Albert Speer and how he used slave labour to produce armaments. Granted pens and bullets are not the same thing, or are they?

    Again it doesn’t mean that pen maker was a Nazi but the symbolism is quite strong.

    I can ask the question: is it more offensive owning a pen of dubious origins, or is easier bashing a misguided, attention seeking ink maker and cancelling him out, just because we supposedly have higher moral standards than he has.

    Do we?

    A mob is a mob.

    In closing, Hillel the Elder, a Talmud scholar, said “Do not do unto others that which you hate done unto yourself, that is the essence of the Torah,"

    That says it all…

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Regarding comedians, I will cop-paste a conversation I had with an internet friend of mine that, I hope, proves useful in the "just as any comedian" line of why some things are not considered appropriate or funny

    One of the hallmarks of my generation is our cynical, sarcastic, and ironic sense of humor. Go back through the edgier comedy of the ‘80s and ‘90s and you’ll find lots of jokes rooted in the idea of removing the power from harmful language. Like jokes about racism made using the language of racism, for example. Or jokes about sexism that work on two levels; a surface one of denigrating women and an implied one of putting down the sort of terrible person who would ever make a joke like that.

    Despite what a lot of posters in r/GenX think, the reason those jokes don’t work well now isn’t because “wokeness” is taking all the fun out of life. They don’t work because the context has changed. The academic discussion about taking the power away from harmful speech by adopting that speech that influenced the culture and made those jokes work then was just as “woke” as anything going on that makes them not work today. One place this idea still has currency though is in the self-referential racial slurs in hip-hop, which fully embraced the idea that you can remove the power of oppression by appropriating the language of oppression.

    When 4chan launched in 2003, the internet was still GenX’s cultural playground and the site’s experience design made it a no-holds-barred marketplace for the most out-there humor. The most shocking content won every time, but no one took it seriously.

    But — and this is where the Marketplace of Ideas begins to breakdown — the context shifted. Younger internet users began finding things like 4chan and, lacking the life experience and generational affinity of the people making horrible jokes, they didn’t always get that they were jokes. So, seeing people get positive response to shocking humor about the Holocaust, some of these new users thought the positive response was to the surface level joke rather than the “sub-joke” about anyone who would make a joke like that. And so they began to say those things seriously, rather than jokingly.

    This has been a long aside to get back to my punk rock friends. Because, like hip-hop which shares punk's mid-‘70s genesis in the boroughs of New York and the edgy comedy of the time, punk was (maybe still is?) about being able to discuss the undiscussable by framing it in art. If you think 4chan is bad, it’s nothing compared to what we would say sitting around making each other laugh.
    Its also worth noting that, no one is taking away Nathan's freedom of speech, they're just tired of what he has to say and are showing him the door. Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences from speech, afterall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yazeh View Post
    We often buy pens made by countries that represent political repression, mass incarceration and cultural genocide.
    No one seems to be offended by that.
    Ironically, up to and including Nathan Tardif himself.

    Edit: some typos. I'm sure there are more.
    Last edited by AzJon; May 25th, 2022 at 12:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Back from a run and had a bit of time to reflect on this conversation regarding mobs, free speech, and how we receive apology.

    First, the "mob" as it were is not a thing. Yes, there are people who are mad at Nathan, but there are other people that are mad that people are mad at Nathan. Does that make them a mob? Are the anti-PC police a mob? I would say yes, but that's to each their own.

    I was thinking a lot about a fella on the internet by the name of Dr. Jackson Crawford. He's an Old Norse specialist at the University of Colorado, formerly at UC Berkley and UCLA. His interest is in Old Norse stories and the runes. He's consulted on a number of films and video games regarding the use of runic alphabets. The runes in Frozen, for example, were his work and 100% period accurate. As a researcher of Old Norse, Dr. Crawford comes up against a lot of white supremacy, neo-nazi groups due to their own fetishization of "norse" culture. Dr. Crawford goes out of his way to make the point that not only are they wrong, but why they are wrong and that they are bad people who are not to be tolerated. So here we have a guy, making commentary on symbols and practices that were directly linked to antisemitism and Nazis, old and new, that actively explains why he discusses what he does and how these people have it wrong.

    To your point, Lloyd, I would love Nathan to come out and explain his decisions. He even could have regarding the most recent ink. He could have come out and said, "well, I think Bernanke is the devil, so I put horns on him. Heh." But that would shatter the illusion that Nathan has any real substance behind his snarky commentary and would have to defend some of his more half-baked or poorly informed opinions. But lets say, for argument sake, that Nathan is a secret genius and has super deep meaning behind the symbols he chooses to use. All he had to do was say, "Hey everyone, I wanted to explain this ink. I put horn....etc. I'm sorry that this imagery offended fountain pen users, Jewish or otherwise, that may own or were considering buying my ink, and as a token of good faith for my misunderstanding, I will remove the horns and redo the label. Again, I'm sorry for anyone I offended with this ink."

    Done.

    And not do it on his safe-space youtube channel either. Come out to Reddit, the source of this "mob" and let him apologize and explain his why. Those that were mad might not forgive him, but it wouldn't have added fuel to the fire by his knee-jerk reaction and annoyed his own base.

    And that really is the crux of it: Nathan is either unable or unwilling to engage with people and explain his position, right or wrong, and instead chooses to be reactive instead of proactive, petulant instead of understanding.

    He's choosing to act like a child.

    Perhaps to your rhetorical question regarding drawing horns on people you didn't like, Lloyd, is pertinent because he's acting like a child, instead of an adult who can take responsibility for their actions.

    You can talk about his principles all you want, but I do not see a principled man before me. I see an angry child who, instead of facing criticism with honor, hides behind his screen in his little cabin in the woods, and kvetches against stuff he doesn't like. And, of course, the stuff he doesn't like is also evil, amoral, and wrong because he believes in the supreme good of historical figures and idols, he is, therefore, incapable of wrong. Its a profound fallacy, but one that he seems to indulge entirely.

    I should also point out, Lloyd and anyone else that supports Nathan, you can still buy his inks and support him and find his actions distasteful. These are not mutually exclusive things.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I also apologize to anyone that sees this thread and thinks I'm some woke millenial PC whatever, but this stuff is personal to me on a number of levels.

    I'm the mixed race son of a Native American father and white mother, whose father and brother have raven black hair and native features, where I was born with blonde hair and looking, as a child more like my mother. Makes for very interesting life experiences regarding race and the things people say when they don't know your history or background.

    Second, when I lived in Germany, I wore a beard and often had a hat on. Add in my darker skin tone (thanks dad!) and I was asked, openly and without shame, if I was a "Jew" or perhaps a "Rabbi" and if I should be at [insert bar, club, or business]. My answer was often that no, I was not Jewish, just an unkempt and uncultured American. I would laugh, they would laugh, the whole thing would blow over, but you still felt the undertones in the situation were my answer different.

    So, anyways, not that it matters that much, but if you want a reason why I think about these things a lot and why I'm insistent on discussing them, that's it.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    @AzJon, I truly appreciate your input. It elevates the spirit. Thank you.

    I have always seen Nathan as petulant child. Many of his inks, like the Russian series, I believe are made by his adult self.
    Yes, if he could man up and stop acting like a wounded child, then this tempest would have been indeed in a teacup.

    If Nathan were to run for office, I would be truly worried.
    Countries run by men/women who are controlled by wounded/traumatized children are in deep danger to themselves and the world.

    Thank you again, in putting into words, what I could not express.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I also want to thank you, AzJon, for your insight. I feel we each have the right to accept or reject Nathan and his products (someone might buy his products despite being at odds with his perceived messages just like we might buy a Tesla but dislike Elon). I don't respect the distributors ceasing to carry his products, though. Most of the companies know Nathan and his beliefs. They know that antisemitism didn't drive this label; he was (poorly) showing his disdain for the economic structure these two men favored.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Well I just checked around some of my ink stores and Goulet Pens shows every bottle of Noodler's as Out of Stock, as does Pen Boutique, and Anderson Pens has only the sample vials of Noodler's on Sale at 1/2 price. The stores that still sell Bottles are Dromgooles, Vanness, Pen Chalet, Fountain Pen Hospital, and Jetpens. In Canada Wonder Pens still has the bottles in Stock.
    Last edited by junglejim; May 25th, 2022 at 05:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I think that the retailers bailing on Noodler's is not because of the labels. It's because Mr. Tardif's stubborn reactions have dismayed them and given them serious pause. We all make mistakes, especially of this kind (cultural or historical blindspots). The insight into character comes in the decisions in the consequence and redress phases. Apparently, Mr. Tardif's behavior and tone in the aftermath were not reassuring to the vendors. Especially if, as Jon mentioned above, they were actively trying to work him through the fire without too much burning.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    This has been a balanced and edifying discussion of a complicated topic. I appreciate all of your (all) insights.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Sometimes, I liken Nathan to a troubled artist whose behaviors I am at odds with, but whose art I value. Taking this to a huge extreme, I put musical titan Charlie Parker (there's plenty of other examples) whose contributions to music is immeasurable, but personal behaviors were reprehensible. I'm grateful that I had easy access to his recordings. I can understand someone not hiring him as he was very undependable, but I couldn't understand not distributing his products.

    Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    I've had friends tell me that they were not sorry that Jerry Garcia was dead because he was a drug addict (so it was his own fault). I've had friends tell me that they could no longer read Hemingway because he behaved like an abusive misogynist. I've had friends, many times, tell me about artists with lines that would begin "Did you know" and then what would proceed to come out of their mouth was some item from the artist's personal life or comment made in an interview.

    In nearly every case, I dismiss the news as irrelevant to my aesthetic appreciation of the artist's work. I find some of the commentary not much better than malicious gossip. However, I also must admit that there have been a few times that the information has effected me: I just can't shake it. We each decide this for ourselves.

    To Lloyd: I don't know why you would hold retailers to standards above your own (or some other individual). There is no ethical requirement that they sell anything from anyone. They can dislike a company spokesperson, salesperson, owner, or just even the pricing contract and say, "Screw it. I'm not gonna sell this stuff." And they can decide this any time for any reason (within the limits allowable by contract law). Retailers are making these decisions all the time, and they have their own investments (and profits) and employees to consider.

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    Default Re: Noodler's Inks relabeling?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    To Lloyd: I don't know why you would hold retailers to standards above your own (or some other individual). There is no ethical requirement that they sell anything from anyone. They can dislike a company spokesperson, salesperson, owner, or just even the pricing contract and say, "Screw it. I'm not gonna sell this stuff." And they can decide this any time for any reason (within the limits allowable by contract law). Retailers are making these decisions all the time, and they have their own investments (and profits) and employees to consider.
    If the distributor chose based on their own beliefs/feelings, I can respect that. I wouldn't respect them being swayed by mass hysteria (think of McCarthyism).

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    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
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