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Thread: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

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    Default Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    I am in favor of amendments to the US Constitution to put in place both age limits and term limits on multiple governmental offices and positions of power.

    Here is a recent column that I am in agreement with:

    Isaac Saul from Tangle

    My take.
    We need to do something about the rapidly aging Congress, because too many members seem unfit to serve.
    I have no idea what McConnell’s condition is — which is a problem.
    Ultimately, term limits are looking more appealing than ever.
    Well, I wasn't expecting to cover this in the newsletter, since I've already let a lot of my emotions out on our YouTube channel. But the recent statements from McConnell's office, the Capitol physician, and a slew of commentary from the right and left have forced my hand.

    First: Whatever this is, it isn't "dehydration" and "lightheadedness." I was out at a bar last night with a few friends when the topic of McConnell "freezing" came up, and it was funny hearing all the normies who loosely pay attention to politics talk about it. When I was asked (and shared) the explanation from McConnell's team, there was a literal outburst of laughter — scoffing at the absurdity of the explanation. It was like a good punchline. Which, to me, is the right response. To anyone not mired in this stuff, the idea that this is just an older man who forgot to drink enough water is absurd on its face.

    But you know what is so frustrating here? We don't know. And maybe McConnell doesn't, either. I texted a family member who is both a political junkie and a neurologist about the episodes, and he speculated that if McConnell is experiencing TIA (effectively "mini strokes"), his doctors would be a lot more cautious with him and he probably wouldn't be working. He suggested maybe the fall McConnell took earlier this year initiated some kind of epilepsy. That’s pure speculation, of course, and neither of us have an informed idea. But in his letter, the Capitol physician explicitly went out of his way to exclude TIA and epilepsy, so my cousin was at least above the target.

    Speaking of the Capitol physician, there are few doctors who are as vulnerable to conflict of interest as those who serve in that position. As Jim Geraghty said (under “What the right is saying”), it would be easier to believe the assessment "if it came from a medical professional whose way of making a living did not depend on McConnell staying in office." I don't put much stock in the Capitol physician's public letter, which reads more like a public relations bit than a diagnosis. So, like everyone else, I'm left with pure conjecture.

    Here's what isn't conjecture, though: This is uncharted territory. Before the year 2000, the average age of the Senate was never over 60, but it has been ever since. Today, the average age is 64 years old. More noticeably, the percentage of Senators over 70 has risen from just over 5% in the year 2000, to 15% in 2010, to nearly 25% this year. Only 10% of the Senate is under the age of 50, and only two — J.D. Vance (R-OH) and Jon Ossoff (D-GA) — are under 40. As I've said over and over again, age is not the issue here. Fitness is. But the higher the percentage of our senators who are elderly, the higher the likelihood that some won't be fit to serve anymore. And we are seeing that play out in real time, right before our eyes.

    Perhaps a little bit of this increased average age can be attributed to life expectancy going up, but that impact should be marginal. Life expectancy in the U.S. in 2000 was 76 years old; today it is 79. The real reason for the increased average age is that being a member of Congress has become a lifelong career, rather than a momentary chapter in one’s life. Politicians are increasingly working in Congress until retirement (or until health and age issues force them out). For their part, maybe this is rational. McConnell makes $193,400 per year and has great health care. He and his wife Elaine Chao own three homes and have a combined net worth of $30 million. He's a conservative hero and now the longest serving leader in party history. The job is cushy, the money is good, and the accolades are real. Things have worked out for him.

    But this cannot go on.

    We can't have people who are in charge of solving our immigration crisis or exorbitantly expensive health care or the runaway debt who can't even answer questions from reporters. We can't have questions of war and peace — literal life and death — being solved by 81-year-olds with mysterious, unexplainable health conditions that randomly cause them to be unable to speak, hear, or move. Or, in the case of people like Feinstein, we can't have members of Congress voting on bills when they don't know they're there for a vote. None of this is acceptable.

    The obvious answer supported by 83% of Americans (including 80% of Democrats and 86% of Republicans) is term limits. There are great arguments for term limits, but I've personally been torn on the idea. I don't like removing choice from voters — if they have a representative they love and want to keep putting them into office, they should be able to do that. And I don't like the idea of a constant cycle of rookie politicians in Congress — they need time to learn the ropes and the system.

    But over the last few years, my position has evolved and become more ardently pro-term limits. I no longer see these potential threats or even the very real harms outweighing what we have now. Gerrymandering and closed primaries already remove so much choice from voters, making the power of incumbency way too strong to rely solely on voting to remove members of Congress who are unfit — especially when they have six-year terms. And while rookie politicians bring inexperience, they can also inject fresh energy into our aging Congress and create a younger, more representative body.

    Of course, the best case scenario would be if members of Congress stepped down on their own — if the culture of Congress were one where people served a few terms admirably and then left. But Congress doesn't have that culture, and we don't have those members, so it's time to do something new. As long as he refuses to step down, Americans are right to view McConnell as the latest in a long list of reasons why we need reform — and term limits are as good an option as any.


    Numbers.
    • 8.5. The average years of service for representatives elected to the 118th House.
    • 11.2. The average years of service for senators elected to the 118th Senate.
    • 2.5. The average years of service for incoming representatives in the 1800s.
    • 4.8. The average years of service for incoming senators in the 1800s.
    • 22. The number of terms served in the House by Reps. Hal Rogers (R-KY), Steny Hoyer (D-MD), and Christopher Smith (R-NJ).
    • 1937. The year Rogers was born.
    • 90. The age of Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), the oldest member of Congress.

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    There is someone waiting to fill every older statesman who will continue in the same vein.

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    There is someone waiting to fill every older statesman who will continue in the same vein.
    Don't get this. Fill them with what? Could you explain?

    Since the aging process varies a lot, and doctors are not always to be trusted, I'd say term limits (say 12 for House and 5 for Senate) would be a good idea.

    An absolute age limit of 85 would also be reasonable.

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    I'd even go for age limit 80.

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    There is someone waiting to fill every older statesman who will continue in the same vein.
    Don't get this. Fill them with what? Could you explain?

    Since the aging process varies a lot, and doctors are not always to be trusted, I'd say term limits (say 12 for House and 5 for Senate) would be a good idea.

    An absolute age limit of 85 would also be reasonable.
    There is someone in Kentucky being groomed to take McConnel's place. So, simply using age and thinking it will make a difference is foolish. I saw this in Tennessee. A congressman died and his son took over. Decades later he decided not to seek re-election and Tim Burchett ran and one. The Second District is a strong Republican stronghold going back to the CW. Look up Tim Burchett and what he said after the Nashville school shooting. So, he would fit your age standard, but so what?

    What I did hear yesterday that I had no considered is that McConnel is he represents the establishment wing of the Republican party. This wing is at odds with the Josh Hawley and Jordan side. What could happen is McConnel is replaced by someone who represents the radical side. Age here is not the issue.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Age here is not the issue.
    Yet most states require more frequent driving tests for the oldest licensees. Which implies that in many cases, competence does decrease as one ages.

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Airline pilots: mandatory retirement @65

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Age here is not the issue.
    Yet most states require more frequent driving tests for the oldest licensees. Which implies that in many cases, competence does decrease as one ages.
    If everyone arrives at a state of incompetence, age limits would be more rational. Is McConnell incompetent? Is Feinstein incompetent? Is Federman incompetent?

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Consider if you will the case of Pauline Newman—
    https://www.reuters.com/legal/legali...ve-2023-09-07/

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Consider if you will the case of Pauline Newman—
    https://www.reuters.com/legal/legali...ve-2023-09-07/
    I am glad she is doing well.

    This is why I am for a Constitutional Amendment for an age-limit: the reason isn't ONLY because of cognitive abilities. The founders understood the wisdom of minimum age limits (regardless of the level of individual maturity and experience and assets), but they failed to see the wisdom of upper age limits (regardless of the level of individual cognitive abilities and experience and assets). I wish that we would correct that error, especially now that US citizens, on average, live so much longer and since our incumbancy re-election rates are so high. Entrenchment, in my opinion, is a detriment to progress.

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    I'll have to get back to this after I return from vacation but leave you with this for now: with 6200+ posts it would seem you are entrenched. And, one could say, detrimental to progress.

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    That's an aspersion, not a statement about term limits or age limits (the thread topic here).

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    I'll have to get back to this after I return from vacation but leave you with this for now: with 6200+ posts it would seem you are entrenched. And, one could say, detrimental to progress.
    My pick for the ZINGER of the week!
    Thanks and have a great vay-kay.......

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    That's an aspersion, not a statement about term limits or age limits (the thread topic here).
    No, it's not an aspersion. It relates to age limits based on your connection between the two.
    The point you missed is that "entrenched" is a conclusion without a foundation.
    Let's use age and see if that helps: you and I are retired, presumably of a certain age. Let's assume 65.
    Using that metric alone, we are "entrenched" and should be ousted from FPG.
    There are other major problems lurking in Judge Newman's case for your consideration.
    If you will.


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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    So both Seney and I misread your tone and target?

    Your denial aside, if you're going to continue in this vein, I'll no longer respond to you. I started this thread to discuss a constitutional topic. That's all I'm interested in.

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I am in favor of amendments to the US Constitution to put in place both age limits and term limits on multiple governmental offices and positions of power.

    Here is a recent column that I am in agreement with:

    Isaac Saul from Tangle

    My take.
    We need to do something about the rapidly aging Congress, because too many members seem unfit to serve.
    I have no idea what McConnell’s condition is — which is a problem.
    Ultimately, term limits are looking more appealing than ever.
    Well, I wasn't expecting to cover this in the newsletter, since I've already let a lot of my emotions out on our YouTube channel. But the recent statements from McConnell's office, the Capitol physician, and a slew of commentary from the right and left have forced my hand.

    First: Whatever this is, it isn't "dehydration" and "lightheadedness." I was out at a bar last night with a few friends when the topic of McConnell "freezing" came up, and it was funny hearing all the normies who loosely pay attention to politics talk about it. When I was asked (and shared) the explanation from McConnell's team, there was a literal outburst of laughter — scoffing at the absurdity of the explanation. It was like a good punchline. Which, to me, is the right response. To anyone not mired in this stuff, the idea that this is just an older man who forgot to drink enough water is absurd on its face.

    But you know what is so frustrating here? We don't know. And maybe McConnell doesn't, either. I texted a family member who is both a political junkie and a neurologist about the episodes, and he speculated that if McConnell is experiencing TIA (effectively "mini strokes"), his doctors would be a lot more cautious with him and he probably wouldn't be working. He suggested maybe the fall McConnell took earlier this year initiated some kind of epilepsy. That’s pure speculation, of course, and neither of us have an informed idea. But in his letter, the Capitol physician explicitly went out of his way to exclude TIA and epilepsy, so my cousin was at least above the target.

    Speaking of the Capitol physician, there are few doctors who are as vulnerable to conflict of interest as those who serve in that position. As Jim Geraghty said (under “What the right is saying”), it would be easier to believe the assessment "if it came from a medical professional whose way of making a living did not depend on McConnell staying in office." I don't put much stock in the Capitol physician's public letter, which reads more like a public relations bit than a diagnosis. So, like everyone else, I'm left with pure conjecture.

    Here's what isn't conjecture, though: This is uncharted territory. Before the year 2000, the average age of the Senate was never over 60, but it has been ever since. Today, the average age is 64 years old. More noticeably, the percentage of Senators over 70 has risen from just over 5% in the year 2000, to 15% in 2010, to nearly 25% this year. Only 10% of the Senate is under the age of 50, and only two — J.D. Vance (R-OH) and Jon Ossoff (D-GA) — are under 40. As I've said over and over again, age is not the issue here. Fitness is. But the higher the percentage of our senators who are elderly, the higher the likelihood that some won't be fit to serve anymore. And we are seeing that play out in real time, right before our eyes.

    Perhaps a little bit of this increased average age can be attributed to life expectancy going up, but that impact should be marginal. Life expectancy in the U.S. in 2000 was 76 years old; today it is 79. The real reason for the increased average age is that being a member of Congress has become a lifelong career, rather than a momentary chapter in one’s life. Politicians are increasingly working in Congress until retirement (or until health and age issues force them out). For their part, maybe this is rational. McConnell makes $193,400 per year and has great health care. He and his wife Elaine Chao own three homes and have a combined net worth of $30 million. He's a conservative hero and now the longest serving leader in party history. The job is cushy, the money is good, and the accolades are real. Things have worked out for him.

    But this cannot go on.

    We can't have people who are in charge of solving our immigration crisis or exorbitantly expensive health care or the runaway debt who can't even answer questions from reporters. We can't have questions of war and peace — literal life and death — being solved by 81-year-olds with mysterious, unexplainable health conditions that randomly cause them to be unable to speak, hear, or move. Or, in the case of people like Feinstein, we can't have members of Congress voting on bills when they don't know they're there for a vote. None of this is acceptable.

    The obvious answer supported by 83% of Americans (including 80% of Democrats and 86% of Republicans) is term limits. There are great arguments for term limits, but I've personally been torn on the idea. I don't like removing choice from voters — if they have a representative they love and want to keep putting them into office, they should be able to do that. And I don't like the idea of a constant cycle of rookie politicians in Congress — they need time to learn the ropes and the system.

    But over the last few years, my position has evolved and become more ardently pro-term limits. I no longer see these potential threats or even the very real harms outweighing what we have now. Gerrymandering and closed primaries already remove so much choice from voters, making the power of incumbency way too strong to rely solely on voting to remove members of Congress who are unfit — especially when they have six-year terms. And while rookie politicians bring inexperience, they can also inject fresh energy into our aging Congress and create a younger, more representative body.

    Of course, the best case scenario would be if members of Congress stepped down on their own — if the culture of Congress were one where people served a few terms admirably and then left. But Congress doesn't have that culture, and we don't have those members, so it's time to do something new. As long as he refuses to step down, Americans are right to view McConnell as the latest in a long list of reasons why we need reform — and term limits are as good an option as any.


    Numbers.
    • 8.5. The average years of service for representatives elected to the 118th House.
    • 11.2. The average years of service for senators elected to the 118th Senate.
    • 2.5. The average years of service for incoming representatives in the 1800s.
    • 4.8. The average years of service for incoming senators in the 1800s.
    • 22. The number of terms served in the House by Reps. Hal Rogers (R-KY), Steny Hoyer (D-MD), and Christopher Smith (R-NJ).
    • 1937. The year Rogers was born.
    • 90. The age of Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), the oldest member of Congress.
    I'll repeat this post to get us back on topic. Saul's strongest point is for term limits.

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    So both Seney and I misread your tone and target?

    Your denial aside, if you're going to continue in this vein, I'll no longer respond to you. I started this thread to discuss a constitutional topic. That's all I'm interested in.
    I can go with "zinger."
    Sometimes it takes bringing an issue to the personal level to get someone's attention. And it did get your attention. It pointed out that "entrenchment " can be applied to just about anyone with any seniority. Did you not recognize that can include you and me?
    I picked the link purposely to see if a reader would see the Constitutional issues. Do you?

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    So both Seney and I misread your tone and target?

    Your denial aside, if you're going to continue in this vein, I'll no longer respond to you. I started this thread to discuss a constitutional topic. That's all I'm interested in.
    Please speak for yourself TSherbs.

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    @kazoolaw
    Can you make this more clearly about age limits or term limits? Are you opposed to expanding their use?

    I have stated my support for expanding their use. I have posted on this thread (and another) arguments (better made by others than I can) for why.

    If you see "issues," just spell them out.

    I started the thread. It has my attention. There is no need to be personally critical.

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    Default Re: Age limits and/or Term Limits?

    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post

    Please speak for yourself TSherbs.
    Seney, do you have a comment on the topics of age limits or term limits?

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