The American Cowboy Myth

[bunnspecial]

Let it go. I have no recollection.

Fine advise-you should take it yourself.


EDIT: Inappropriate statement on my part removed for which I explained the meaning and apologized in post 36. I stand by the remaining portions of this post.

[Lloyd]

The Cowboy Myth, like the Superior White Race Myth and the Gun Myth, are deeply embedded in American culture.

That is, they motivate actions that are often insane and self-defeating without the license granted by the myth.

If it weren't for the myth of "streets lined in gold", would put ancestors have come here?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[TSherbs]

.... but by gosh if you EVER call me stupid again on a topic where I'm(very) knowledgeable because refer to something as a myth, I WILL BURY YOU asshole.

I am reporting this post.

[Lloyd]

.... but by gosh if you EVER call me stupid again on a topic where I'm(very) knowledgeable because refer to something as a myth, I WILL BURY YOU asshole.

I am reporting this post.

🙏I didn't know there was anyone to report this to.

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[bunnspecial]

.... but by gosh if you EVER call me stupid again on a topic where I'm(very) knowledgeable because refer to something as a myth, I WILL BURY YOU asshole.

I am reporting this post.

Report away and I'll stand by what I said about the nasty hypocrite Chuck. BTW a simple "I'm sorry I'm being a hypocrite about this and for calling you stupid for using the same phrasing I'm using now" from him would have sufficed but we all know he has too big of an ego to admit he was wrong.

What are you going to do, ban me from here? Go ahead if you have that power, but Chuck would be a better one to get rid of since I try to actually contribute substance to this site and he does nothing but troll here and on FPN both.

[Chuck Naill]

Let it go. I have no recollection.

Fine advise-you should take it yourself.

I suppose selective memory is at play that you don't want to remember a time where you had your ass handed to you being proven wrong despite being your usual nasty self.

That's all, though, Chuck. Please continue calling things "myths" when it suits you, but by gosh if you EVER call me stupid again on a topic where I'm(very) knowledgeable because refer to something as a myth, I WILL BURY YOU asshole.

Were we discussing rail road watches? If so, reply with the context of our interaction. If I feel you deserve an apology, I will gladly provide. Seems like I remember something on the other site.

[bunnspecial]

Let it go. I have no recollection.

Fine advise-you should take it yourself.

I suppose selective memory is at play that you don't want to remember a time where you had your ass handed to you being proven wrong despite being your usual nasty self.

That's all, though, Chuck. Please continue calling things "myths" when it suits you, but by gosh if you EVER call me stupid again on a topic where I'm(very) knowledgeable because refer to something as a myth, I WILL BURY YOU asshole.

Were we discussing rail road watches? If so, reply with the context of our interaction. If I feel you deserve an apology, I will gladly provide. Seems like I remember something on the other site.

Yes, that was it and you decided you would make it personal when I showed you were wrong.

I'll await your apology for calling me stupid, resorting to cheap personal attacks, and the like because you posted incorrect information that I corrected.

[TSherbs]

Let it go. I have no recollection.

Fine advise-you should take it yourself.

I suppose selective memory is at play that you don't want to remember a time where you had your ass handed to you being proven wrong despite being your usual nasty self.

That's all, though, Chuck. Please continue calling things "myths" when it suits you, but by gosh if you EVER call me stupid again on a topic where I'm(very) knowledgeable because refer to something as a myth, I WILL BURY YOU asshole.

Were we discussing rail road watches? If so, reply with the context of our interaction. If I feel you deserve an apology, I will gladly provide. Seems like I remember something on the other site.

Yes, that was it and you decided you would make it personal when I showed you were wrong.

I'll await your apology for calling me stupid, resorting to cheap personal attacks, and the like because you posted incorrect information that I corrected.

This wasn't even on this site? Why don't you two take this to PMs and resolve things there. Or over on that "other site" where something happened. And bunnspecial, keep your indirect references to violence against another poster off these pages.

Here is another thread totally sidetracked by some kind of personal animus between posters.

[Chuck Naill]

Let it go. I have no recollection.

Fine advise-you should take it yourself.

I suppose selective memory is at play that you don't want to remember a time where you had your ass handed to you being proven wrong despite being your usual nasty self.

That's all, though, Chuck. Please continue calling things "myths" when it suits you, but by gosh if you EVER call me stupid again on a topic where I'm(very) knowledgeable because refer to something as a myth, I WILL BURY YOU asshole.

Were we discussing rail road watches? If so, reply with the context of our interaction. If I feel you deserve an apology, I will gladly provide. Seems like I remember something on the other site.

Yes, that was it and you decided you would make it personal when I showed you were wrong.

I'll await your apology for calling me stupid, resorting to cheap personal attacks, and the like because you posted incorrect information that I corrected.

Did you say that something I wrote was a myth? If so, explain the context. I need to be reminded.

[bunnspecial]

Let it go. I have no recollection.

Fine advise-you should take it yourself.

I suppose selective memory is at play that you don't want to remember a time where you had your ass handed to you being proven wrong despite being your usual nasty self.

That's all, though, Chuck. Please continue calling things "myths" when it suits you, but by gosh if you EVER call me stupid again on a topic where I'm(very) knowledgeable because refer to something as a myth, I WILL BURY YOU asshole.

Were we discussing rail road watches? If so, reply with the context of our interaction. If I feel you deserve an apology, I will gladly provide. Seems like I remember something on the other site.

Yes, that was it and you decided you would make it personal when I showed you were wrong.

I'll await your apology for calling me stupid, resorting to cheap personal attacks, and the like because you posted incorrect information that I corrected.

This wasn't even on this site? Why don't you two take this to PMs and resolve things there. Or over on that "other site" where something happened. And bunnspecial, keep your indirect references to violence against another poster off these pages.

Here is another thread totally sidetracked by some kind of personal animus between posters.

That was not a thread of violence by any remote stretch. It was a threat of burying with superior KNOWLEDGE-a figure of speech. I would not resort to violence of a stupid internet disagreement.

[Chuck Naill]

This threads topic is about the “cowboy” myth that white men began and Hollywood perpetuated post the American Civil War.

You chose to vent your issues with me. We could have handled this privately, but you wanted a public outlet to air your grievances.

You needed to whine about me calling you stupid by calling me an asshole. Own your own shit,

As before, if I was wrong about rail road watch history, just say it. Hell fire with this passive aggression.

[bunnspecial]

Let it go. I have no recollection.

Fine advise-you should take it yourself.

I suppose selective memory is at play that you don't want to remember a time where you had your ass handed to you being proven wrong despite being your usual nasty self.

That's all, though, Chuck. Please continue calling things "myths" when it suits you, but by gosh if you EVER call me stupid again on a topic where I'm(very) knowledgeable because refer to something as a myth, I WILL BURY YOU asshole.

Were we discussing rail road watches? If so, reply with the context of our interaction. If I feel you deserve an apology, I will gladly provide. Seems like I remember something on the other site.

Yes, that was it and you decided you would make it personal when I showed you were wrong.

I'll await your apology for calling me stupid, resorting to cheap personal attacks, and the like because you posted incorrect information that I corrected.

Did you say that something I wrote was a myth? If so, explain the context. I need to be reminded.

Here was the story-

You posted an elaborate story about how Webb C. Ball "created" railroad standards because of a train wreck in Ohio in the 1890s. This is a commonly repeated story that originates from an interview Webb C. Ball gave in the 1910s or 1920s, but it historically inaccurate. Standards were in place before this accident, didn't change immediately after it, although Webb C. Ball certainly had input he was not the key player and the majority of his "suggestions" were not implemented. Still, though, Ball was a showman and continued repeating the story to bolster the perceived value of his company.

I referred to this story as a myth based, again, on in-depth research on the subject by people who actually know their stuff on this.

You referred to anyone, and by extension me, as being "stupid" for calling something a myth when that person wasn't there-much as you've done with this article(were you around in the days of American cowboys? I think not, therefore this scenario is the same).

As I attempted to dispute you, you continued employing strawman arguments saying that I was arguing such standards never existed(I never disputed this) and sharing information that was essentially the first result of a Google search. Any time I'd call you on one and refute something, you resorted to, again, the same strawman.

You finally closed out the conversation with what I think you intended to be a low blow that really showed your limited knowledge on the subject by saying(apparently based on my user name) that you'd ask me about "Coffee Pots", not realizing that in fact Bunn Special was the most popular grade of Railroad Watch made by the Illinois Watch Company of Springfield, IL.

And that was when the mods cleaned it up and closed it.

And again, my "I will bury you" was in reference to the fact that I know my shit on this topic. I've immersed myself in research on it for years. I've contributed to the body of research on it. I personally know The folks you liked to cite I know personally(as in they're people I've shared meals with at shows, etc) and correspond with them regularly. You were showing a level of knowledge that indicated you'd spent an afternoon Googling the stuff. You dug your hole posting incorrect information and staunchly defending it. More, it's a specific reference to Kruschev saying "We Will Bury You".

So, again, I await your apology.

[Chuck Naill]

https://www.ideastream.org/programs/...railroad-watch


https://casostation.ca/webb-ball-and...waymans-watch/

So, I didn’t call you personally stupid?

When I got interested in the Hamilton 992 with a Montgomery dial I did some research on the whole history that brought about the use of watches to prevent accidents.

I also did some interviews with retired RR employees.

I was unable to find any information to verify your opinion that the Webb C. Ball history was a fabrication or myth.

No apology is required. You can believe what you want. If you want to start a thread to prove you are in fact correct and that Mr. Ball had no influence on RR time keeping, I will read what you post and decide then if my comments where misplaced. However, saying something is stupid is not a personal attack. You calling me a asshole is, however, very much one.

[TSherbs]

Here is another thread totally sidetracked by some kind of personal animus between posters.

Like I said.

[Chuck Naill]

Let’s not go there. We’ve all sidetracked at one time or another. When emotions flow, it’s bound to occur.

[bunnspecial]

https://www.ideastream.org/programs/...railroad-watch


https://casostation.ca/webb-ball-and...waymans-watch/

So, I didn’t call you personally stupid?

When I got interested in the Hamilton 992 with a Montgomery dial I did some research on the whole history that brought about the use of watches to prevent accidents.

I also did some interviews with retired RR employees.

I was unable to find any information to verify your opinion that the Webb C. Ball history was a fabrication or myth.

No apology is required. You can believe what you want. If you want to start a thread to prove you are in fact correct and that Mr. Ball had no influence on RR time keeping, I will read what you post and decide then if my comments where misplaced. However, saying something is stupid is not a personal attack. You calling me a asshole is, however, very much one.

So first of all, let me offer my own apology directly to you, Chuck.

I called you an "ass" and an "asshole." I may at times not agree with what you say or take personal issue with how you deliver it, but that is not an excuse to resort to ad hominem attacks or simple name-calling. It will not happen again, and I hope you will accept my apology.

Second, I realize my use of the phrase "I will bury you" can easily be construed as a threat of violence. Although I in no way intended it as such, I hope it can be believed that I in no way intended it as such. As we have been discussing in other topics(specifically the Noodler's ink topic) the meaning of what the person does not over-rule how the statement is perceived. I will fully own that, and again apologize and hope that what I am saying here can be accepted as an true statement of my intentions.

Now, to the other topic-

Once again I take issue with this statement

I was unable to find any information to verify your opinion that the Webb C. Ball history was a fabrication or myth.

I made a very nuanced statement that essentially was "Webb C. Ball did have a role in setting standards, but his role was not as great as he claimed in later years it was."

You posted an elaborate story about how Webb C. Ball "created" railroad standards because of a train wreck in Ohio in the 1890s. This is a commonly repeated story that originates from an interview Webb C. Ball gave in the 1910s or 1920s, but it historically inaccurate. Standards were in place before this accident, didn't change immediately after it, although Webb C. Ball certainly had input he was not the key player and the majority of his "suggestions" were not implemented. Still, though, Ball was a showman and continued repeating the story to bolster the perceived value of his company.

Please CAREFULLY read this statement and note that I acknowledge he had a role, but the core of it is that he was not the key player in this statement.

I will, in the next few minutes, be providing references from the Watch and Clock bulletin, a peer-reviewed journal from the National Association of Watch and Clock collectors. The references I will provided are(severely) paywalled(I just paid over $100 for another year of membership in the organization, which includes access) but would be happy to provide full text PDFs via email. I'll also mention that although I have had articles published in this journal, I will not be providing any in which I had any direct involvement to remove bias on my part.

[bunnspecial]

Okay, here is the key article

https://docs.nawcc.org/Bulletins/200...38/338_349.pdf

Here is a relevant quote-actually the entire first page

THE BALL WATCH STORY—PART 1
RAILROAD STANDARD WATCHES—
THE EARLY YEARS

Whenever one considers the subject of standard
watches associated with railroad time service, the
name Webb C. Ball and two of his businesses quickly
come to mind. During the early 1890s there was a huge
surge of development in railroad time service and
watch inspection systems. Many roads that had been
publishing rules and specifying watches for decades
overhauled their practices, while other roads initiated
new time service systems. Ball was active from the
onset, establishing the Ball Railroad Time Service to
contract for inspection services, and both the Ball
Watch Co. and the Railroad Watch Co. to supply the
watches. Ball was active from the onset, establishing
the Ball Railroad Time Service to contract for inspec-
tion services and both the Ball Watch Co. and the
Railroad Watch Co. to supply the watches.
Ball’s watch companies obtained watches, built to
his specifications, from a number of manufacturers.
The vast majority of these were ordered as unadjusted
movements to be taken down and adjusted by Ball’s
employees prior to sale to the dealers. These watches
were stamped with Ball’s registered trade marks,
appealing to railroaders and ensuring that others
would not be able to market watches of the same name.
The high quality of these watches are an irresistible
lure to today’s collectors and Ball’s Official RR
Standard (ORRS) watches and their companions, the
brotherhood Official Standard watches are highly
prized.

With the help of many of our fellow members, we are
pleased to present a look at the wide range of standard
watches that were marketed by Ball. In this column,
we’ll start by discussing the formative period from the
late 1880s to 1900. In Part 2, the next column, we’ll
trace the evolution of the Official Standard watches
from 1900 to the post-World War II era when the last
of the Ball railroad pocket watches were made. Part 3
will take a look at Ball’s private label and railroad
brotherhood standard watches. Part 4 will examine the
variety and changing style of cases in which almost all
of the Ball movements were sold.

The Myth

A lot of collectors believe that time service was non-
existent, or at best chaotic, prior to Ball’s association
with the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern Railway
(the LS&MS, a New York Central Lines road). Ball
described his involvement as following a wreck on that
road in 1891 at Kipton, Ohio. 1 The general belief is
that upon being appointed to the position of Chief Time
Inspector of the LS&MS, Ball immediately created the
overall system of railroad time service and issued
requirements for standard watches that included: 17-
jewel minimum, adjustment to five positions, double
roller, open-face only, Arabic dials, and lever-set move-
ments.

The Reality

The reality is somewhat different. Time service sys-
tems continually evolved starting from the 1850s, as
did the watches that were used in service. Even Ball
himself was the General Watch Inspector for a number
of railroads prior to the Kipton wreck. These railroads,
including the Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St.
Louis (otherwise known as The Big Four - another New
York Central Lines road), and the Pennsylvania
Railroad (the Standard Railroad of the World), are list-
ed in a January 1891 Ball ad. 2 Although there was an
upsurge of new and revised systems in the early 1890s
in which Ball played a significant role, the require-
ments mentioned above weren’t widely in place until
about 16 years later, around 1907.

Note that Singer and Uberall do use the words "significant role" in reference to W.C. Ball, so I am happy to modify my earlier statement, however note also that they use the word "Myth" in reference to the whole Kipton wreck story.

Again, full text available by private contact. This article is part of a long series published by Singer and Uberall in the early 2000s called "The Railroader's Corner"

[Chuck Naill]

I am interested is knowing about the evolution of the RR watch. I have the 992 but also a 1901 940 RR .

My cousin said as a conductor he had to have his train on the side track in 37 minutes from Hot Springs in Del Rio to allow the fast mail train coming North out of KNOXVILLE. He used a wrist quartz .

[Chuck Naill]

From what you posted, it appears Balls involvement was early on. An accurate time piece is essential for a reliable time standard to be possible.

I’m struggling knowing where we disagree?? If you said my posts were a myth, obviously I’m going to respond. Not even what you posted today refutes.

[bunnspecial]

From what you posted, it appears Balls involvement was early on. An accurate time piece is essential for a reliable time standard to be possible.

I’m struggling knowing where we disagree?? If you said my posts were a myth, obviously I’m going to respond. Not even what you posted today refutes.

Every reference you've cited either implies or outright states that standards did not exist before the 1891 Kipton train crash, and that it was Ball's exclusive work that put a specific set of standards into play. In short, it's often cited that the 1891 wreck was a catalyst for this happening.

This is what I'm calling a myth, and this is what you took offense to in the prior discussion. The standards existed WELL before Ball was even involved in the watch trade, and the wreck may have caused a look at them but it was not something that Ball simply snapped his fingers and made happen. This is a key difference and where I have a real issue with the often-repeated story(read your own references and you'll see that they do not tell the same story as the article I shared tells).

I suppose you are fortunate the nastiest comments you made have been removed so I can not quote them verbatim, but you took specific issue with this post https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/f...omment=4463947

You objected my use of the word myth and your statement effectively was that people who call things myths when they weren't there are "stupid"(yes, those were your exact words) and when I pushed you on if you referring to me as stupid, you specifically confirmed as such and continued with the personal insults including the most illogical one of suggesting I'd be an expert on coffee pots...

So, my original point in all of this discussion was that you are using the word myth in this post to dispute history, just as I did in that post and you took offense.