Gun policy analysis thread.

[Chip]

Dear Leader? Bubblespeak? As usual, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Nor, I fear, do you. . .

[Lloyd]

One issue with guns isn't people like scottt (assuming you are as self-aware you think you are) nor the illegal gun owners. It's those that THINK they dependably know right from wrong in all situations, accurately can assess all potential "situations", and know and obey ALL steps before drawing and using their gun.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

While training can get you pretty far down the road with ability to determine the situation, I think you're talking about people that have that 100% blind faith of certainty, and won't hear a word against it. They do not accept the fact that the situation may not be as straightforward as it may seem, there may be hidden variables, there may be larger issues at play and so on.

When you feel your life is in danger, that to not act invites great bodily harm or death, then one does one's best. De-escalate, evade and leave the area if at all possible. Do anything and everything you can think of to not use the weapon unless it is indeed a last resort.

Be aware that when someone acts criminally, how they act can change some of those variables instantly.

Nobody is perfect. Look at the cops, private security mistakes, friendly-fire in the military, etc. One thing to remember is cause and effect. Look at what starts many of these interactions.

You sound stable and trustworthy. I wonder about the 22 year old that just lost his girlfriend and went out drinking the night before, the guy who gets into road rage, the guy who was raised to think people of color are a threat, etc.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

You could just as easily suggest the 22 year old gets drunk and has an accident hurting people, what should we do, ban alcohol? Etc. Amazing that we have so many alcohol-related encounters, drunk people commiting assault, battery, duis, accidents or much worse. Why doesn't anyone look at alcohol?

They did...Prohibition.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

Alcohol is highly regulated and taxed, and the use of it is acknowledged as a danger to youth and to families. We know that many men and some women abuse their families because of it. We acknowledge that roughly 10% of the population cannot properly control their use of it, and we teach children for years that it is a toxin.

I'm not sure we do any of that with guns. And yet all those things are true of guns, too (not to mention how many people are now killing themselves with them).

[scottt]

Dear Leader? Bubblespeak? As usual, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Nor, I fear, do you. . .

Of course, I use a sarcastic name for the current head of this trainwreck we're all in, and you claim ignorance.

That you also claim ignorance on the laws trying to be passed or claims made by those who share your viewpoint on guns would lead me to believe either you are actually not aware (which is possible because you probably do not stray far from your own views) or, as many of your view do, deny all that makes you uncomfortable.

But I do find it odd that you never did answer my repeated question, who have you trusted to be responsible for your safety?

[scottt]

One issue with guns isn't people like scottt (assuming you are as self-aware you think you are) nor the illegal gun owners. It's those that THINK they dependably know right from wrong in all situations, accurately can assess all potential "situations", and know and obey ALL steps before drawing and using their gun.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

While training can get you pretty far down the road with ability to determine the situation, I think you're talking about people that have that 100% blind faith of certainty, and won't hear a word against it. They do not accept the fact that the situation may not be as straightforward as it may seem, there may be hidden variables, there may be larger issues at play and so on.

When you feel your life is in danger, that to not act invites great bodily harm or death, then one does one's best. De-escalate, evade and leave the area if at all possible. Do anything and everything you can think of to not use the weapon unless it is indeed a last resort.

Be aware that when someone acts criminally, how they act can change some of those variables instantly.

Nobody is perfect. Look at the cops, private security mistakes, friendly-fire in the military, etc. One thing to remember is cause and effect. Look at what starts many of these interactions.

You sound stable and trustworthy. I wonder about the 22 year old that just lost his girlfriend and went out drinking the night before, the guy who gets into road rage, the guy who was raised to think people of color are a threat, etc.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

You could just as easily suggest the 22 year old gets drunk and has an accident hurting people, what should we do, ban alcohol? Etc. Amazing that we have so many alcohol-related encounters, drunk people commiting assault, battery, duis, accidents or much worse. Why doesn't anyone look at alcohol?

They did...Prohibition.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Exactly, Lloyd. And how did that work out?

[scottt]

Alcohol is highly regulated and taxed, and the use of it is acknowledged as a danger to youth and to families. We know that many men and some women abuse their families because of it. We acknowledge that roughly 10% of the population cannot properly control their use of it, and we teach children for years that it is a toxin.

I'm not sure we do any of that with guns. And yet all those things are true of guns, too (not to mention how many people are now killing themselves with them).

Yet alcohol is widely available, abused every day, and responsible for many deaths and injuries. Yet no mention of stricter regulation or control seems to be made.

Guns are very regulated, and taxed. There are special taxes on gun parts, on the firearms themselves, on ammunition as well. The safety programs that used to be in schools (way back) taught gun safety, but those were phased out. They used to teach gun safety in the scouts too, didn't they?

There are training classes and seminars all over, thousands of videos online teaching gun safety, proper mindset, legalities, responsibilities, etc.

I'm not against education or training, nor am I against the kind of help needed for those people who need to talk to someone before it is too late. I don't know any gun owner who is.

Back to policy for a moment. I am coming to believe more and more the ideological break is that I think a gun is a tool and to focus on the people with ill intent, while the vast majority of the other side of that break ignores the fact bad people exist and will always break laws, and they focus on the tool used.

You and Chip never did answer who you hold responsible for your own (and your family's) safety. I'm not trying to pry, but I think one would either hold themselves accountable, and therefore make sure they can do the best if something bad should occur, or they put their faith in others, which, given how the police have acted lately (from Floyd to Uvalde) has me wondering how they came to that choice?

[Chip]

That you also claim ignorance on the laws trying to be passed or claims made by those who share your viewpoint on guns would lead me to believe either you are actually not aware (which is possible because you probably do not stray far from your own views) or, as many of your view do, deny all that makes you uncomfortable.

But I do find it odd that you never did answer my repeated question, who have you trusted to be responsible for your safety?

Safety? I'm responsible, mainly through my common sense and judgement. I worked most of my adult life in fairly hazardous outdoor jobs, often alone in remote places. Never carried a gun. I got several safety awards for accident-free performance by my field crews. I trusted the pilots who flew us to wildfires. I trusted my partners on winter sampling trips in a high mountain wilderness, and on hundreds of rock and ice climbs. When we were evacuated for wildfires, I left the house unlocked so the firefighters could use the toilet if needed and trusted them not to steal our stuff. I've trusted quite a few people and it had nothing to do with guns.

I've never called the cops. My wife did, once, when the live-in boyfriend of our whacko RWW neighbor came after her when she was pulling weeds on our common access road. He claimed it was HIS road, HIS weeds, and kept yelling "Are You Stupid!" Then he dumped out the weeds and threw the bucket at her. She retreated and called the sheriff. I called our lawyer. The neighbor kicked him out not long after and he went back to Florida (he was originally from Texas.).

Earlier, I'd gotten into a spat with him when he set up a little tent and was in it with a sniper rifle, shooting at ground squirrels in her pasture. I noticed he was firing toward our property line and asked him quietly not to aim at our place or toward the public path along the river. He got red in the face and screamed at me: "I NEVER MISS!"

FYI he was a military vet and former ATF agent with, according another neighbor (a fellow Republican who visited) a large cache of weapons.

[TSherbs]

Alcohol is highly regulated and taxed, and the use of it is acknowledged as a danger to youth and to families. We know that many men and some women abuse their families because of it. We acknowledge that roughly 10% of the population cannot properly control their use of it, and we teach children for years that it is a toxin.

I'm not sure we do any of that with guns. And yet all those things are true of guns, too (not to mention how many people are now killing themselves with them).

Yet alcohol is widely available, abused every day, and responsible for many deaths and injuries. Yet no mention of stricter regulation or control seems to be made.

Guns are very regulated, and taxed. There are special taxes on gun parts, on the firearms themselves, on ammunition as well. The safety programs that used to be in schools (way back) taught gun safety, but those were phased out. They used to teach gun safety in the scouts too, didn't they?

There are training classes and seminars all over, thousands of videos online teaching gun safety, proper mindset, legalities, responsibilities, etc.

I'm not against education or training, nor am I against the kind of help needed for those people who need to talk to someone before it is too late. I don't know any gun owner who is.

Back to policy for a moment. I am coming to believe more and more the ideological break is that I think a gun is a tool and to focus on the people with ill intent, while the vast majority of the other side of that break ignores the fact bad people exist and will always break laws, and they focus on the tool used.

You and Chip never did answer who you hold responsible for your own (and your family's) safety. I'm not trying to pry, but I think one would either hold themselves accountable, and therefore make sure they can do the best if something bad should occur, or they put their faith in others, which, given how the police have acted lately (from Floyd to Uvalde) has me wondering how they came to that choice?

Safe from what? Your question is so broad, I assume that it means, how do you manage to feel safe? I do not feel threatened in my person or property. I am adequately secure, and have always felt that way. I don't lock my house or my car. I am more worried about being sprayed by skunks than anything else, and I don't resort to a gun to solve the problem (flashlight does the trick). Ive been mugged and robbed in the city. I am glad that I did not have a gun to try to defend my rights of property and person. Someone may have died, and there was no need or reason for that (maybe me). I lost $50. And was a bit shaken. I became wiser after that about which routes I took back to my apartment.

[scottt]

That you also claim ignorance on the laws trying to be passed or claims made by those who share your viewpoint on guns would lead me to believe either you are actually not aware (which is possible because you probably do not stray far from your own views) or, as many of your view do, deny all that makes you uncomfortable.

But I do find it odd that you never did answer my repeated question, who have you trusted to be responsible for your safety?

Safety? I'm responsible, mainly through my common sense and judgement. I worked most of my adult life in fairly hazardous outdoor jobs, often alone in remote places. Never carried a gun. I got several safety awards for accident-free performance by my field crews. I trusted the pilots who flew us to wildfires. I trusted my partners on winter sampling trips in a high mountain wilderness, and on hundreds of rock and ice climbs. When we were evacuated for wildfires, I left the house unlocked so the firefighters could use the toilet if needed and trusted them not to steal our stuff. I've trusted quite a few people and it had nothing to do with guns.

I've never called the cops. My wife did, once, when the live-in boyfriend of our whacko RWW neighbor came after her when she was pulling weeds on our common access road. He claimed it was HIS road, HIS weeds, and kept yelling "Are You Stupid!" Then he dumped out the weeds and threw the bucket at her. She retreated and called the sheriff. I called our lawyer. The neighbor kicked him out not long after and he went back to Florida (he was originally from Texas.).

Earlier, I'd gotten into a spat with him when he set up a little tent and was in it with a sniper rifle, shooting at ground squirrels in her pasture. I noticed he was firing toward our property line and asked him quietly not to aim at our place or toward the public path along the river. He got red in the face and screamed at me: "I NEVER MISS!"

FYI he was a military vet and former ATF agent with, according another neighbor (a fellow Republican who visited) a large cache of weapons.

Well, Chipster, it does indeed sound like you live in a very nice place. I wasn't really talking about hazards, more in line with the thread it was about people causing problems, not wildfires and the like, but glad you made it through all that.

What is a RWW? I assume it is something akin to dope fiend? I always smile because you can't help yourself from going there.

A sniper rifle? Ok. And of course the neighbor was a fellow Republican, sigh.

For what it is worth, I've met a few former ATF agents, and quite a few fit that mold, unfortunately.

So you live in a place that does not experience much crime, awesome. I've heard the winters there are quite impressive, how would you compare them to a good Northeastern one?

[scottt]

Alcohol is highly regulated and taxed, and the use of it is acknowledged as a danger to youth and to families. We know that many men and some women abuse their families because of it. We acknowledge that roughly 10% of the population cannot properly control their use of it, and we teach children for years that it is a toxin.

I'm not sure we do any of that with guns. And yet all those things are true of guns, too (not to mention how many people are now killing themselves with them).

Yet alcohol is widely available, abused every day, and responsible for many deaths and injuries. Yet no mention of stricter regulation or control seems to be made.

Guns are very regulated, and taxed. There are special taxes on gun parts, on the firearms themselves, on ammunition as well. The safety programs that used to be in schools (way back) taught gun safety, but those were phased out. They used to teach gun safety in the scouts too, didn't they?

There are training classes and seminars all over, thousands of videos online teaching gun safety, proper mindset, legalities, responsibilities, etc.

I'm not against education or training, nor am I against the kind of help needed for those people who need to talk to someone before it is too late. I don't know any gun owner who is.

Back to policy for a moment. I am coming to believe more and more the ideological break is that I think a gun is a tool and to focus on the people with ill intent, while the vast majority of the other side of that break ignores the fact bad people exist and will always break laws, and they focus on the tool used.

You and Chip never did answer who you hold responsible for your own (and your family's) safety. I'm not trying to pry, but I think one would either hold themselves accountable, and therefore make sure they can do the best if something bad should occur, or they put their faith in others, which, given how the police have acted lately (from Floyd to Uvalde) has me wondering how they came to that choice?

Safe from what? Your question is so broad, I assume that it means, how do you manage to feel safe? I do not feel threatened in my person or property. I am adequately secure, and have always felt that way. I don't lock my house or my car. I am more worried about being sprayed by skunks than anything else, and I don't resort to a gun to solve the problem (flashlight does the trick). Ive been mugged and robbed in the city. I am glad that I did not have a gun to try to defend my rights of property and person. Someone may have died, and there was no need or reason for that (maybe me). I lost $50. And was a bit shaken. I became wiser after that about which routes I took back to my apartment.

We are discussing gun policy, and criminals, and criminal activity. Safety from other people who would wish you harm, is that clearer? C'mon Tsherbs, you know I'm not talking about wildfires or drought or something.

So you're thoughs on being mugged are best not resist, and do your best to avoid, is that fair?

Whereabouts do you live that not locking your house or car is cool? Seriously, where is that?

[Chip]

I wasn't really talking about hazards, more in line with the thread it was about people causing problems. . .

The last two wildfires here were caused by people shooting their guns in the tinder-dry National Forest. I heard they were playing with tracers or exploding ammo.

What is a RWW? I assume it is something akin to dope fiend? I always smile because you can't help yourself from going there.

It's an acronym for Right Wing Whackjob. If you can't remember it, I'll gladly type it in full.

A sniper rifle? Ok. And of course the neighbor was a fellow Republican, sigh.

Typical gun-nut deflection (cf. the assault rifle crap). It was a black military-type rifle with a bipod and big scope. Since he was screaming at me, I didn't inquire as to the exact specs.

Almost all my neighbors are Republicans. Wyoming voted 70% for Trump.

For what it is worth, I've met a few former ATF agents, and quite a few fit that mold, unfortunately.

Most of them are ex-miiltary who got the ATF jobs on a vet preference. We got quite a few vet-prefs in the Forest Service, most of whom were incompetent bums, escaping jobs as federal grain inspectors or the like.

So you live in a place that does not experience much crime, awesome. I've heard the winters there are quite impressive, how would you compare them to a good Northeastern one?

Never experienced a NE winter, so I have no basis for comparison. Have you ever camped out at 11,000 ft. and –40°F?

[TSherbs]

Alcohol is highly regulated and taxed, and the use of it is acknowledged as a danger to youth and to families. We know that many men and some women abuse their families because of it. We acknowledge that roughly 10% of the population cannot properly control their use of it, and we teach children for years that it is a toxin.

I'm not sure we do any of that with guns. And yet all those things are true of guns, too (not to mention how many people are now killing themselves with them).

Yet alcohol is widely available, abused every day, and responsible for many deaths and injuries. Yet no mention of stricter regulation or control seems to be made.

Guns are very regulated, and taxed. There are special taxes on gun parts, on the firearms themselves, on ammunition as well. The safety programs that used to be in schools (way back) taught gun safety, but those were phased out. They used to teach gun safety in the scouts too, didn't they?

There are training classes and seminars all over, thousands of videos online teaching gun safety, proper mindset, legalities, responsibilities, etc.

I'm not against education or training, nor am I against the kind of help needed for those people who need to talk to someone before it is too late. I don't know any gun owner who is.

Back to policy for a moment. I am coming to believe more and more the ideological break is that I think a gun is a tool and to focus on the people with ill intent, while the vast majority of the other side of that break ignores the fact bad people exist and will always break laws, and they focus on the tool used.

You and Chip never did answer who you hold responsible for your own (and your family's) safety. I'm not trying to pry, but I think one would either hold themselves accountable, and therefore make sure they can do the best if something bad should occur, or they put their faith in others, which, given how the police have acted lately (from Floyd to Uvalde) has me wondering how they came to that choice?

Safe from what? Your question is so broad, I assume that it means, how do you manage to feel safe? I do not feel threatened in my person or property. I am adequately secure, and have always felt that way. I don't lock my house or my car. I am more worried about being sprayed by skunks than anything else, and I don't resort to a gun to solve the problem (flashlight does the trick). Ive been mugged and robbed in the city. I am glad that I did not have a gun to try to defend my rights of property and person. Someone may have died, and there was no need or reason for that (maybe me). I lost $50. And was a bit shaken. I became wiser after that about which routes I took back to my apartment.

We are discussing gun policy, and criminals, and criminal activity. Safety from other people who would wish you harm, is that clearer? C'mon Tsherbs, you know I'm not talking about wildfires or drought or something.

So you're thoughs on being mugged are best not resist, and do your best to avoid, is that fair?

Whereabouts do you live that not locking your house or car is cool? Seriously, where is that?

Look, I answered sincerely. I don't feel unsafe, and I don't think gun ownership actually makes us safer. If you want guns to solve property crimes, I think that you're just trading up the sliding scale of fear, violence, and insanity. Or, you're just making gun companies rich.

How does it matter where I live? So that you can dismiss my answer? Don't ask a question that you then reject the sincere answer of because you think that my context is irrelevant. If I had agreed with you, would you have asked where I live?

[Lloyd]

Is it a coincidence that the two members who live in regions where one can leave their doors unlocked don't see any benefit to gun ownership?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

You're the mathematician. Tell us if there is anything to this sample and possible "correlation."

I've lived in three large cities, too, by the way. Bigger than yours. I've had murders on my street, robberies at gun point, an aborted fetus in a paper bag in a gutter outside my apartment, and one of the first cyanide/Tylenol deaths was around the corner from me. I've been spat on as a teacher in Boston and had my life threatened.

Still never wanted a gun. But that fat groundhog under my shed and eating some of my lettuce irks me to no end. My neighbors just shoot them. Not me.

[Lloyd]

You're the mathematician. Tell us if there is anything to this sample and possible "correlation."

I've lived in three large cities, too, by the way. Bigger than yours. I've had murders on my street, robberies at gun point, an aborted fetus in a paper bag in a gutter outside my apartment, and one of the first cyanide/Tylenol deaths was around the corner from me. I've been spat on as a teacher in Boston and had my life threatened.

Still never wanted a gun. But that fat groundhog under my shed and eating some of my lettuce irks me to no end. My neighbors just shoot them. Not me.

I'm not suggesting that you'd want a gun, only that you'd be able to catch a glimpse into the other's reasoning.
Block the varmints hole.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

You're the mathematician. Tell us if there is anything to this sample and possible "correlation."

I've lived in three large cities, too, by the way. Bigger than yours. I've had murders on my street, robberies at gun point, an aborted fetus in a paper bag in a gutter outside my apartment, and one of the first cyanide/Tylenol deaths was around the corner from me. I've been spat on as a teacher in Boston and had my life threatened.

Still never wanted a gun. But that fat groundhog under my shed and eating some of my lettuce irks me to no end. My neighbors just shoot them. Not me.

I'm not suggesting that you'd want a gun, only that you'd be able to catch a glimpse into the other's reasoning.

I understand his thinking. I reject it, is all.

Block the varmints hole.

Can't (or I would). Or I can't without much effort and some expense. Not worth it. His tax on my garden is annoying, but not devastating. I also have some big hawks and some eagles (I live near an estuary river) that keep the rodents under cover a good bit of the time. So I guess my answer to scott is that I trust the raptors.

[Lloyd]

"New Orleans to use civilians as crime-scene ‘detectives’ as slayings spike"
https://nypost.com/2022/09/25/new-or...id-slay-spike/

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Lloyd]

TSherbs- Did you have kids when you lived in a threatening locale?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Chip]

Is it a coincidence that the two members who live in regions where one can leave their doors unlocked don't see any benefit to gun ownership?

Bollocks! I already posted that we own hunting rifles and a .22 pistol to dispatch wildlife hit on the highway near our house.

Wyoming has the second highest rate of gun ownership in the US: 66.2%. Also a very high rate of suicide, domestic violence involving guns, and firearms accidents.

I don't want any weapons that are intended solely to threaten or kill other people in my house or anywhere near me.

In high school, I worked nights at a gas station on the Vegas Strip, a high-crime area. I recognized the risk, but wasn't afraid. Maybe I don't have chicken DNA.

Aren't you in the Boston area? Do you have an arsenal? Is that a coincidence? An oversight?

You seem driven to pose trivial objections and quibbles.

[Lloyd]

Is it a coincidence that the two members who live in regions where one can leave their doors unlocked don't see any benefit to gun ownership?

Bollocks! I already posted that we own hunting rifles and a .22 pistol to dispatch wildlife hit on the highway near our house.

Wyoming has the second highest rate of gun ownership in the US: 66.2%. Also a very high rate of suicide, domestic violence involving guns, and firearms accidents.

I don't want any weapons that are intended solely to threaten or kill other people in my house or anywhere near me.

In high school, I worked nights at a gas station on the Vegas Strip, a high-crime area. I recognized the risk, but wasn't afraid. Maybe I don't have chicken DNA.

Aren't you in the Boston area? Do you have an arsenal? Is that a coincidence? An oversight?

You seem driven to pose trivial objections and quibbles.

I don't want any part of gun ownership, but I can see the rational. If I lived in a crime filled area, had neighbors who were shot, there were break-ins nearby, insufficient local policing, and family to protect, I might feel differently.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™