Gun policy analysis thread.

[TSherbs]

.... Any idiot that thinks ....

Here you are flaunting that membership in your "group" again. You're in! No need to keep auditioning.

[scottt]

No, not "every" method. The other ones you mention are less lethal and don't have as long of a "half-life," so to speak, and aren't as prone to lethality in accidents, etc.

But again, let us not forget, that it is perhaps wisdom, as Chip has said, that is the best defense against what we fear, and does not threaten anyone else with projectiles designed to cut holes in flesh. You keep mentioning tools that harm, but there are other options that involve no weaponry. You might even try letting go of your warrior/defense point of view, There are other ways to manage fears besides living behind a fortress (that's a metaphor, mostly).

Do you fear fire? Is that why you keep an extinguisher in your house? Do you fear flooding, and is that why you buy insurance? You keep using fear as if it the sum total of the issue. But let's look at what you say: I have to go to places in some cities that are high crime. That is not fear, that is fact. Criminals who prey on people can often use violent force. Again, not fear, fact. Total compliance with the criminal's demands does often result in getting hurt, fact. (There is a heartbreaking video of a clerk who complied fully and was shot in the head as a reward.)

I feel having a method for defense is rational. You state options that involve no weaponry. Please explain in more detail, I'd like to learn about them.

[TSherbs]

No, not "every" method. The other ones you mention are less lethal and don't have as long of a "half-life," so to speak, and aren't as prone to lethality in accidents, etc.

But again, let us not forget, that it is perhaps wisdom, as Chip has said, that is the best defense against what we fear, and does not threaten anyone else with projectiles designed to cut holes in flesh. You keep mentioning tools that harm, but there are other options that involve no weaponry. You might even try letting go of your warrior/defense point of view, There are other ways to manage fears besides living behind a fortress (that's a metaphor, mostly).

Do you fear fire? Is that why you keep an extinguisher in your house? Do you fear flooding, and is that why you buy insurance? You keep using fear as if it the sum total of the issue. But let's look at what you say: I have to go to places in some cities that are high crime.

That is not a fact. That is a summary conclusion, masking the facts. The crime rate in the area that you visit, particularly the rate against business (I am guessing) visitors to the area, in their cars, etc, would be the relevant "fact." What you call a "high" crime rates might mean that you would have to make 10,000 visits to such areas before you are even reaching a probability of >0.5 of having a crime committed against you (I am making up numbers to identify what I mean by "facts.") Your fear/worry/concern is an emotional fact, yes. But I keep trying to at least suggest that not all of our fears warrant a weaponized defense when looked at statistically (facts of relative incidence rates).

For example, if you are an urban auto repo man or DEA agent, your relavent violent incidence rate is much higher (I speculate) than that for a white-collar person parking in a private garage connected to the office building.

I can't and won't bother giving you a crash course in non-armed self defense or conflict avoidance training. Look online. De-escalation is a well-known term to search. I'm a retired teacher. I've been trained a little in deescalation with angry teens, but that is it.

[TSherbs]

In Fort Myers there are now sharks in the streets....

https://twitter.com/US_Stormwatch/st...5ral2A9kg&s=19

[dneal]

.... Any idiot that thinks ....

Here you are flaunting that membership in your "group" again. You're in! No need to keep auditioning.

That's quite a hypothesis you've developed from essentially nothing. Not sure what group you think I'm a member of by criticizing idiotic partisan rhetoric, even if it comes from a lawyer... hey, wait a minute, that's what they do. Offer partisan rhetoric to sway opinion.

So I suppose the group I'm a member of (or auditioning for?) is one that values reason over rhetoric? One that is capable of identifying nonsense designed for a particular echo chamber? Yeah, I'll take the compliment. Thanks. I didn't think you could overcome your petty contempt for... well, seemingly everything.

[TSherbs]

@scottt, the other thing I want to add is that I am not trying to dissuade you from owning your weapons. You are free to buy as many as you want or think is appropriate. I assume you are not trying to dissuade me from my position, either. I do hope, however, that when you approach the end of your life that you have the guns still in your possession destroyed. I really wish that the feds would institute a national buy-back program and melt them down. Even if it is to make materials for our armed forces. Just get them out of the use-stream of the citizenry. That's my hope, anyway.

[TSherbs]

I didn't think you could overcome your petty contempt for... well, seemingly everything.

eyeroll

[Lloyd]

In Fort Myers there are now sharks in the streets....

https://twitter.com/US_Stormwatch/st...5ral2A9kg&s=19

If we're lucky, DeSantis will be the shark's dinner.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Chuck Naill]

After sending poor, despairing people all across the US, he’s asking for mercy. Do folks know how many deaths from COVID he and Abbots caused from not taking the pandemic more serious? I’d be ashamed to show my face.

[dneal]

In Fort Myers there are now sharks in the streets....

https://twitter.com/US_Stormwatch/st...5ral2A9kg&s=19

If we're lucky, DeSantis will be the shark's dinner.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

That’s a curious sentiment. It’s always interesting when you guys slip and publicly hope for the death of others. A variant of the celebration of death exhibited when an anti-vaxxer does of covid (or in a more recent example, cancer, I believe). Could politics motivate that? Would someone have to be “politically charged” to think that the death of a politician on the other side is a joke?

The red kooks do this too. I’m an equal opportunity citicizer, there just aren’t any of those posting here regularly. I only post this to preempt the inevitable deflection.

But I’m just being… what’s the word? Easily excitable? Demonstrating a lack of composure? What is the limit to the number of words I mustn’t exceed, by the way?

[Chuck Naill]

Not all have hoped for death, @dneal. Again, your posts demonstrate a radical, conspiratorial tone probably related to your need for relevance. Be well, dudette.

[dneal]

Not all have hoped for death, @dneal. Again, your posts demonstrate a radical, conspiratorial tone probably related to your need for relevance. Be well, dudette.

That's true, Chuck. Not all have hoped for the death of others who they disagree with politically. You've spotted the obvious. Well done.

The thing you miss is your own post history though. Can I "be well" in an ICU bed if I don't get the vaccine? I believe you said something about if I don't get the vaccine then don't ask for an ICU bed. Why? If I needed an ICU bed, might not I die without it? You do see the implication you've made, don't you?

Do you remember posting this?. What was your reason for posting that? The headline is: Vladimir Zelenko, 48, Dies; Promoted an Unfounded Covid Treatment. Dr. Zelenko died from a battle with lung cancer. Was there some relevance to lung cancer in that vaccine thread? Call me conspiratorial, but it seems you were using it as a "told you so" post.

[Chuck Naill]

Not all have hoped for death, @dneal. Again, your posts demonstrate a radical, conspiratorial tone probably related to your need for relevance. Be well, dudette.

That's true, Chuck. Not all have hoped for the death of others who they disagree with politically. You've spotted the obvious. Well done.

The thing you miss is your own post history though. Can I "be well" in an ICU bed if I don't get the vaccine? I believe you said something about if I don't get the vaccine then don't ask for an ICU bed. Why? If I needed an ICU bed, might not I die without it? You do see the implication you've made, don't you?

Do you remember posting this?. What was your reason for posting that? The headline is: Vladimir Zelenko, 48, Dies; Promoted an Unfounded Covid Treatment. Dr. Zelenko died from a battle with lung cancer. Was there some relevance to lung cancer in that vaccine thread? Call me conspiratorial, but it seems you were using it as a "told you so" post.

The reasoning should be obvious. If one chooses
not to, at least, take the minimum of effort to protect oneself as well as others, why inflict the pandemic on professionals in the hospital.

What you linked was a person putting out false information, to which you chose to post. His demise in not anyones fault but his own.

[Lloyd]

I was joking about DeSantis. I just finished listening to a podcast about the movie JAWS. I'd be upset if something calamitous happened to him.... I'm not into schadenfreude.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[dneal]

Not all have hoped for death, @dneal. Again, your posts demonstrate a radical, conspiratorial tone probably related to your need for relevance. Be well, dudette.

That's true, Chuck. Not all have hoped for the death of others who they disagree with politically. You've spotted the obvious. Well done.

The thing you miss is your own post history though. Can I "be well" in an ICU bed if I don't get the vaccine? I believe you said something about if I don't get the vaccine then don't ask for an ICU bed. Why? If I needed an ICU bed, might not I die without it? You do see the implication you've made, don't you?

Do you remember posting this?. What was your reason for posting that? The headline is: Vladimir Zelenko, 48, Dies; Promoted an Unfounded Covid Treatment. Dr. Zelenko died from a battle with lung cancer. Was there some relevance to lung cancer in that vaccine thread? Call me conspiratorial, but it seems you were using it as a "told you so" post.

The reasoning should be obvious. If one chooses
not to, at least, take the minimum of effort to protect oneself as well as others, why inflict the pandemic on professionals in the hospital.

What you linked was a person putting out false information, to which you chose to post. His demise in not anyones fault but his own.

Yes Chuck, it should be obvious; but I'm merely asking for clarity.

So you shouldn't inflict the pandemic on professionals in the hospital. Ok, let's look at that for a moment. Are the professionals vaccinated? If the vaccine works, it shouldn't matter who comes in for treatment for covid. The professionals are protected, right? But what about when the vaccinated people go for treatment? Set aside the question on why they need treatment when they have been vaccinated. Are they posing more or less of a risk to these vaccinated professionals? You don't appear to have thought about this very deeply.

What I linked was your post, in which you linked a NYT article about Dr. Zelenko. So yeah, I suppose I did link a person (you) putting out false information. You haven't thought that argument through either, I see.

[Chuck Naill]

Not all have hoped for death, @dneal. Again, your posts demonstrate a radical, conspiratorial tone probably related to your need for relevance. Be well, dudette.

That's true, Chuck. Not all have hoped for the death of others who they disagree with politically. You've spotted the obvious. Well done.

The thing you miss is your own post history though. Can I "be well" in an ICU bed if I don't get the vaccine? I believe you said something about if I don't get the vaccine then don't ask for an ICU bed. Why? If I needed an ICU bed, might not I die without it? You do see the implication you've made, don't you?

Do you remember posting this?. What was your reason for posting that? The headline is: Vladimir Zelenko, 48, Dies; Promoted an Unfounded Covid Treatment. Dr. Zelenko died from a battle with lung cancer. Was there some relevance to lung cancer in that vaccine thread? Call me conspiratorial, but it seems you were using it as a "told you so" post.

The reasoning should be obvious. If one chooses
not to, at least, take the minimum of effort to protect oneself as well as others, why inflict the pandemic on professionals in the hospital.

What you linked was a person putting out false information, to which you chose to post. His demise in not anyones fault but his own.

Yes Chuck, it should be obvious; but I'm merely asking for clarity.

So you shouldn't inflict the pandemic on professionals in the hospital. Ok, let's look at that for a moment. Are the professionals vaccinated? If the vaccine works, it shouldn't matter who comes in for treatment for covid. The professionals are protected, right? But what about when the vaccinated people go for treatment? Set aside the question on why they need treatment when they have been vaccinated. Are they posing more or less of a risk to these vaccinated professionals? You don't appear to have thought about this very deeply.

What I linked was your post, in which you linked a NYT article about Dr. Zelenko. So yeah, I suppose I did link a person (you) putting out false information. You haven't thought that argument through either, I see.

Your posts were prior to vaccines being widely available.

Yes, the vaccines do work in that they prevent hospitalization and death. Same with influenza and pertussis.

He did put out false information and you posted.

[Lloyd]

The vaccines work quite well, BUT they're not 100% effective.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Chuck Naill]

Putting out false information on a public forum does not carry the weight of guilt of doing harm. That said, I wouldn’t want to think that I caused another human being to suffer harm from something I posted.

[Chuck Naill]

The vaccines work quite well, BUT they're not 100% effective.



Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Good grief, no one is suggesting they are, Lloyd. Masks and distancing are not 100 effective. Using a condom is not 100 effective. Driving the speed limit does not insure life.

[dneal]

Not all have hoped for death, @dneal. Again, your posts demonstrate a radical, conspiratorial tone probably related to your need for relevance. Be well, dudette.

That's true, Chuck. Not all have hoped for the death of others who they disagree with politically. You've spotted the obvious. Well done.

The thing you miss is your own post history though. Can I "be well" in an ICU bed if I don't get the vaccine? I believe you said something about if I don't get the vaccine then don't ask for an ICU bed. Why? If I needed an ICU bed, might not I die without it? You do see the implication you've made, don't you?

Do you remember posting this?. What was your reason for posting that? The headline is: Vladimir Zelenko, 48, Dies; Promoted an Unfounded Covid Treatment. Dr. Zelenko died from a battle with lung cancer. Was there some relevance to lung cancer in that vaccine thread? Call me conspiratorial, but it seems you were using it as a "told you so" post.

The reasoning should be obvious. If one chooses
not to, at least, take the minimum of effort to protect oneself as well as others, why inflict the pandemic on professionals in the hospital.

What you linked was a person putting out false information, to which you chose to post. His demise in not anyones fault but his own.

Yes Chuck, it should be obvious; but I'm merely asking for clarity.

So you shouldn't inflict the pandemic on professionals in the hospital. Ok, let's look at that for a moment. Are the professionals vaccinated? If the vaccine works, it shouldn't matter who comes in for treatment for covid. The professionals are protected, right? But what about when the vaccinated people go for treatment? Set aside the question on why they need treatment when they have been vaccinated. Are they posing more or less of a risk to these vaccinated professionals? You don't appear to have thought about this very deeply.

What I linked was your post, in which you linked a NYT article about Dr. Zelenko. So yeah, I suppose I did link a person (you) putting out false information. You haven't thought that argument through either, I see.

Your posts were prior to vaccines being widely available.

Yes, the vaccines do work in that they prevent hospitalization and death. Same with influenza and pertussis.

He did put out false information and you posted.

My posts? What are you talking about, Chuck? I linked your 2 July 2022 post with its link to a 1 July 2022 article. You like to say I'm wrong about everything, but I'll risk a claim anyway. The vaccines were indeed widely available at the time in question.

We now know that the vaccines do not prevent hospitalization and death, as was claimed. Prevent: to keep from happening; avert. We see cases of vaccinated people being hospitalized and dying, so the "prevent" claim is demonstrably false. Don't forget that we were told if we got the vaccine we wouldn't get covid. You got the vaccine. You got covid.

The narrative shift will be entertaining.