The Boy Crisis

[Chuck Naill]

As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

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What was the point of this question, Lloyd?

Most abuse on children is perpetrated by adult members of their households. Parents, greatest among them. Fathers greatest among them all.

"Pedophilia" is not a specific criminal act, is it? So, if you determine which actual form of abuse or assault you mean, you can look up all those statistics on public databases.

I was countering Chip, above. He was blaming the effects of the Church and Scout pedophilia for the boy crisis.

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How could either be a dominant force and not the parents themselves? I have encountered teachers and coaches with no filter. A parent should put them in line. Parents are their child's advocate.

Did you look at what Chip wrote?

What if a child doesn't tell their parents?

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Are you a parent?

[Lloyd]

As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

What was the point of this question, Lloyd?

Most abuse on children is perpetrated by adult members of their households. Parents, greatest among them. Fathers greatest among them all.

"Pedophilia" is not a specific criminal act, is it? So, if you determine which actual form of abuse or assault you mean, you can look up all those statistics on public databases.

I was countering Chip, above. He was blaming the effects of the Church and Scout pedophilia for the boy crisis.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

How could either be a dominant force and not the parents themselves? I have encountered teachers and coaches with no filter. A parent should put them in line. Parents are their child's advocate.

Did you look at what Chip wrote?

What if a child doesn't tell their parents?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Are you a parent?

Yes

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Chuck Naill]

As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

What was the point of this question, Lloyd?

Most abuse on children is perpetrated by adult members of their households. Parents, greatest among them. Fathers greatest among them all.

"Pedophilia" is not a specific criminal act, is it? So, if you determine which actual form of abuse or assault you mean, you can look up all those statistics on public databases.

I was countering Chip, above. He was blaming the effects of the Church and Scout pedophilia for the boy crisis.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

How could either be a dominant force and not the parents themselves? I have encountered teachers and coaches with no filter. A parent should put them in line. Parents are their child's advocate.

Did you look at what Chip wrote?

What if a child doesn't tell their parents?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Are you a parent?

Yes

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Congratulations. Then, I suspect you know the role of parenting and not trusting any one with your child's wellbeing.

[Lloyd]

This thread is "The Boy Crisis". The topic got side tracked by Chip.

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[Chip]

This thread is "The Boy Crisis". The topic got side tracked by Chip.

You have a narrow-gauge mind.

[Lloyd]

This thread is "The Boy Crisis". The topic got side tracked by Chip.

You have a narrow-gauge mind.

Why are you commenting on my thought processes as opposed to commenting on my statement? I don't blame the Catholic Church nor the boy scouts (nor their weakened status due in part to the pedophiles within the groups) on the boy crisis.

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[TSherbs]

As horrific as the man-preying-on-boys, what percentage of boys at these male dominated institutions has this happen to them? Was a very high percent of all pedophilia attributable to these groups?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

What was the point of this question, Lloyd?

Most abuse on children is perpetrated by adult members of their households. Parents, greatest among them. Fathers greatest among them all.

"Pedophilia" is not a specific criminal act, is it? So, if you determine which actual form of abuse or assault you mean, you can look up all those statistics on public databases.

I was countering Chip, above. He was blaming the effects of the Church and Scout pedophilia for the boy crisis.

He was not doing that, in my reading. He was questioning the value/health of ritual and rites of passage in lives of young men. He was pointing out three large American national scale institutions that include heavy use of ritual but in fact have terrorized young men and scarred thousands. Seems fair to mention while others are extolling the virtue of ritual to be reminded that it is clearly no panacea. Maybe even evil when it becomes a cover for abuse.

[Lloyd]

In this post (after discussing Petterson), https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php?p=368440, he just discusses the impact of the pedophilia.

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[TSherbs]

In this post (after discussing Petterson), https://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread.php?p=368440, he just discusses the impact of the pedophilia.

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Yes, I read that. That is what I was referring to. I am saying that I read that post differently, and I explained how I read it. He was accused of pulling the thread off topic, but he was not the only one discussing the role of ritual, or its loss, on men in society. In fact, I think that Ether speculated on this in the OP. My point ws to say that Chip was not derailing or distracting the thread. He was just bringing up an important consequence to institutions (large, once-trusted ones) build on traditions, especially for young men. I think that this is right on topic (one of the topics).

I found less easy to understand why you asked questions about how many abuses cases come from priests or ministers or scout leaders, etc. The answer, in raw numbers, is thousands and thousands (for example, 1000 cases in seven Pennsylvania Catholic county diocese alone...that's not even the entire state..and that is just one state). I read your question as an effort to minimize the social damage that these abuse scandals have on America, and I did not understand why you were trying to do that. Maybe you are not aware of the numbers or the spread of this vile practice through several of these organizations, from top to bottom. There has been great impact (forgive me, but I am going to simply assert it. I am not out to prove anything here), and now even on those Protestants who have hidden behind the arrogant shield of "Well, *we* let ministers marry. *We* don't have the problems that those vile papists do. It's the corruption inherent in Catholic hierarchy" (That is a virtual quote from an evangelical aquaintance).

[Lloyd]

I guess I thought the numbers were lower. Do you/Chip think the issue is strongly due to the reduction of these institutions in recent years due to the pedophiles (and other reasons for membership decline) or the impact of these institutions, especially when they were strong, to cause these psychological ills to the boys?

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[TSherbs]

I guess I thought the numbers were lower. Do you/Chip think the issue is strongly due to the reduction of these institutions in recent years due to the pedophiles (and other reasons for membership decline) or the impact of these institutions, especially when they were strong, to cause these psychological ills to the boys?

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Has child abuse directly caused mass killings? I have no idea. I don't know the personal lives of these killers. Psychological profilers know this better.

But the idea that some of them have grown up with absent fathers is an incredibly lazy, superficial pattern. Since so many marriages today end in divorce, you might be narroeing the focus a bit more to look at males born on Tuesdays. See if they share behavior traits any more commonly than turning into mass murderers.

So, no, I don't think this thread has gotten any where near any kind of understanding about what has been tipping these men (mostly young, but definitely not all) into what is most often suicidal murder.

My commentary on the RCC (and other) abuse cases was to agree with Chip that traditional ritualized male developmental stages are not always the solution that we want. We should be very skeptical of them, since they have failed us at times spectacularly.

[Lloyd]

I've often read that bullying begets bullying. Whether from parents, siblings, peers, or neighbors. This would imply that the absent father isn't the issue, but the belligerent/unloving father is.

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[dneal]

I've often read that bullying begets bullying. Whether from parents, siblings, peers, or neighbors. This would imply that the absent father isn't the issue, but the belligerent/unloving father is.

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It's the role of the father, whether absent or unloving. It's all in the interview(s). It's in the book, and it's in many of the articles

[Lloyd]

I've often read that bullying begets bullying. Whether from parents, siblings, peers, or neighbors. This would imply that the absent father isn't the issue, but the belligerent/unloving father is.

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It's the role of the father, whether absent or unloving. It's all in the interview(s). It's in the book, and it's in many of the articles

Your books/articles on this subject can't show cause and effect. Without any father (vagrant or deceased), a great support system via mom/grandparents/social circle, I would think could be just as effective

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[dneal]

They’re not mine, they’re the person’s in the OP. Dismissing a social scientist because they don’t show cause and effect is a bit disingenuous, when the standard is strength of correlation. That’s also the standard for many, if not most hard sciences.

Have you watched either of the interviews? Perused the articles? Or are you making arguments in ignorance (the literal meaning, not the snarky one)?

[Lloyd]

They’re not mine, they’re the person’s in the OP. Dismissing a social scientist because they don’t show cause and effect is a bit disingenuous, when the standard is strength of correlation. That’s also the standard for many, if not most hard sciences.

Have you watched either of the interviews? Perused the articles? Or are you making arguments in ignorance (the literal meaning, not the snarky one)?

I'm not saying they're wrong, just that the "absent father" hypothesis on its own may not be verifiable. I haven't read/ watched these specific individual's work.
You stated, unequivocally, that it's the father's role. I questioned the accuracy of this proclamation.
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[Chip]

Do you/Chip think the issue is strongly due to the reduction of these institutions in recent years due to the pedophiles (and other reasons for membership decline) or the impact of these institutions, especially when they were strong, to cause these psychological ills to the boys?

Neither. What I was trying to say is that the role of formerly trusted institutions such as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts to conduct rites of passage has been damaged by the recurrent scandals.

The combination of sexual abuse by priests and the outright torture, starvation, and forced labor by nuns in the Magdalene Laundries and Mother-and-Baby Homes in Ireland has ruined the status of the Catholic Church. I suspect something similar will soon visit the Southern Baptists. The lawsuits by the thousands abused in Boy Scout programs caused the organization to go bankrupt, and quite a few parents are justly suspicious of the Boy Scouts.

Rites of passage and initiations are most often conducted by groups. When those groups forfeit the public trust, who's going to do it?

Football coaches? Drill instructors? Dope dealers?

[Lloyd]

Do you/Chip think the issue is strongly due to the reduction of these institutions in recent years due to the pedophiles (and other reasons for membership decline) or the impact of these institutions, especially when they were strong, to cause these psychological ills to the boys?

Neither. What I was trying to say is that the role of formerly trusted institutions such as the Catholic Church and the Boy Scouts to conduct rites of passage has been damaged by the recurrent scandals.

The combination of sexual abuse by priests and the outright torture, starvation, and forced labor by nuns in the Magdalene Laundries and Mother-and-Baby Homes in Ireland has ruined the status of the Catholic Church. I suspect something similar will soon visit the Southern Baptists. The lawsuits by the thousands abused in Boy Scout programs caused the organization to go bankrupt, and quite a few parents are justly suspicious of the Boy Scouts.

Rites of passage and initiations are most often conducted by groups. When those groups forfeit the public trust, who's going to do it?

Football coaches? Drill instructors? Dope dealers?

Are you implying that the reduction of the Catholic Church and Boy Scouts will lead to a larger crisis? The pedophilia had been going on for, at least, decades before they were reported and the Boy Crisis was already quite strong. I wonder when the last time there wasn't a boy crisis in the USA.

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[Chip]

I'm not implying anything. Facts are facts. The Catholic pedophilia has likely gone on for hundreds of years, but was hidden by the church and largely ignored by the devout.

What I'm trying to get across is that rites of passage and initiation (necessary for an adult status) depend on trust.

Much of this 'boy crisis' stuff is white male hysteria in reaction to a loss of respect and/or social dominance.

Most rape, abuse, violence, etc. is directed by men toward women. Fact.

But I've heard nothing here about a 'girl crisis.'

[Lloyd]

I'm sorry but I'm still not getting it. Maybe it because neither were part of my world. Ever. Do you think that as long as these two institutions have been around, the crisis was largely due to them? Do you think there reduction will help reduce the crisis?

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