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Thread: DNA tests

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    Default DNA tests

    Has anyone taken a test for familiy research purposes and would recommend them in terms of gained knowledge.

    I did my family tree a few years ago and went back to 1550 without too much difficulty but it is always interesting to learn more?

    I just hope that this will not be a Pandora's Box?

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Both my parents did one.

    My mom turned up two nephews from her sort of wild and a bit estranged sister. She actually stays in regular contact with one of those two, and was able to connect both of them with their biological mother, so in all not a terrible thing.

    Still, though, it was Pandora's Box for her, for sure.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Quote Originally Posted by bunnspecial View Post
    Both my parents did one.

    My mom turned up two nephews from her sort of wild and a bit estranged sister. She actually stays in regular contact with one of those two, and was able to connect both of them with their biological mother, so in all not a terrible thing.

    Still, though, it was Pandora's Box for her, for sure.
    It is an interesting process. When I did the family tree I found some distant relatives that had been in jail and another who was a vicar.

    Another person on that family tree has gone back to 900 with a migration from what is now Sweden down to France and then more movement around 1400, without written records I am a little cautious in accepting this as fact however.

    There is a couple of tv programs at the moment, Who do you think you are and DNA secrets which has sparked the interest.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    I don't recommend it. But some of my family members would say the opposite. As a result of entering the genetic data-base pool, we have discovered some other children that my father had (prior to my mother, out of wedlock). Those other families had not all been told certain truths, then these revelations forced some truths on them. To me, nothing was gained but pain for others. Some things are better left unknown, and the family "stories" are all one needs to know. I do not participate, and I have never given my DNA to that kind of database.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I don't recommend it. But some of my family members would say the opposite. As a result of entering the genetic data-base pool, we have discovered some other children that my father had (prior to my mother, out of wedlock). Those other families had not all been told certain truths, then these revelations forced some truths on them. To me, nothing was gained but pain for others. Some things are better left unknown, and the family "stories" are all one needs to know. I do not participate, and I have never given my DNA to that kind of database.
    A potential minefield, I would be concerned to find that I had half siblings or worse, not something to be entered into lightly.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I don't recommend it. But some of my family members would say the opposite. As a result of entering the genetic data-base pool, we have discovered some other children that my father had (prior to my mother, out of wedlock). Those other families had not all been told certain truths, then these revelations forced some truths on them. To me, nothing was gained but pain for others. Some things are better left unknown, and the family "stories" are all one needs to know. I do not participate, and I have never given my DNA to that kind of database.
    I emphatically disagree.

    My sister, her husband, and I have all had DNA tests done. We had been victims of the family stories of which you speak. My sister's husband found out that his 'father' -- the man he knew as his father and raised him -- was not his birth father. Finding that out has allowed him to discover and recognise his own personal history, understand the dynamics that involved the people in his life, and deepen the respect he has for both men and his mother.

    Our DNA tests (and our subsequent research) allowed my sister and me to discover that much of what our mother had told about our family history was a complete fabrication of half truths and outright lies. Knowing this was especially freeing since it allowed us to explore the truth, escape from the riddle created and left unexplained by her fabrications, and to know who we truly are.

    I will only add that the value of any DNA test is what importance and value one places on what one learns and what doors it may open.



    Editd for typographical errors.
    Last edited by An old bloke; June 21st, 2022 at 02:58 PM.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I don't recommend it. But some of my family members would say the opposite. As a result of entering the genetic data-base pool, we have discovered some other children that my father had (prior to my mother, out of wedlock). Those other families had not all been told certain truths, then these revelations forced some truths on them. To me, nothing was gained but pain for others. Some things are better left unknown, and the family "stories" are all one needs to know. I do not participate, and I have never given my DNA to that kind of database.
    I emphatically disagree.
    My brothers would agree with you. They persued the truth, whatever the consequences (some good, some bad). It's a double-edged sword that cuts in two directions. And some people swing it blindly.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I don't recommend it. But some of my family members would say the opposite. As a result of entering the genetic data-base pool, we have discovered some other children that my father had (prior to my mother, out of wedlock). Those other families had not all been told certain truths, then these revelations forced some truths on them. To me, nothing was gained but pain for others. Some things are better left unknown, and the family "stories" are all one needs to know. I do not participate, and I have never given my DNA to that kind of database.
    A potential minefield, I would be concerned to find that I had half siblings or worse, not something to be entered into lightly.
    Yes, the legal consequences can be mighty, depending on the value of certain estates.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    I went on a similar learning curve OB when I did the family tree, allowed me to understand my family dynamics and behaviours in a way that had not been previously considered.

    There was a movement, perhaps a few years ago, that all babies should have their DNA recorded, possibly for medical purposes but this has the potential for misuse.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    I don't trust that the data they collect won't be used improperly.
    I was not happy when my in laws got theirs done.
    No surprises in the results, and now that data is in the hands of god knows who, and it can be used to identify my kids and their potential kids and so forth.

    We're only starting to understand the implications of our ability to collect and use DNA information. I'm keeping that information close to the vest as I'm able.
    Collecting every baby's DNA is a nightmare scenario. The magnitude of the ethical abuse options that would open up are staggering.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Good points, and all in an unregulated industry with little or no case law to govern the use of data.

    My concern is that my data could be sold on to others, can you imagine have valuable the information would be to an actuary at a life insurance or pensions company.

    On face value the idea is quite attractive, you may wish to know the history of your family and their origins, the reality could be darker.

    I did hear of one man who sent off his sample and had the results of, say, 80% eastern european, 19.9% asia and 0.1% non human.

    Eta for spelling error.
    Last edited by RobJohnson; June 21st, 2022 at 12:03 PM.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    I did here of one man who sent off his sample and had the results of, 80% eastern european, 19.9% asia and 0.1% non human.
    23 and Me report percentage of Neanderthal genes. That 0.1% sounds about right.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Quote Originally Posted by RobJohnson View Post
    Good points, and all in an unregulated industry with little or no case law to govern the use of data.

    My concern is that my data could be sold on to others, can you imagine have valuable the information would be to an actuary at a life insurance or pensions company.
    just wait til the IC decides it's entitled to that data and the maniacs in charge let it happen. (I'll stop now.)

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I don't recommend it. But some of my family members would say the opposite. As a result of entering the genetic data-base pool, we have discovered some other children that my father had (prior to my mother, out of wedlock). Those other families had not all been told certain truths, then these revelations forced some truths on them. To me, nothing was gained but pain for others. Some things are better left unknown, and the family "stories" are all one needs to know. I do not participate, and I have never given my DNA to that kind of database.
    I emphatically disagree.
    My brothers would agree with you. They persued the truth, whatever the consequences (some good, some bad). It's a double-edged sword that cuts in two directions. And some people swing it blindly.
    It is really important to remember that we are not responsible for the actions or misdeeds of those in our families who pre-date us. Whether an ancestor was a hero or a scoundrel is no reflection on us personally.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I don't recommend it. But some of my family members would say the opposite. As a result of entering the genetic data-base pool, we have discovered some other children that my father had (prior to my mother, out of wedlock). Those other families had not all been told certain truths, then these revelations forced some truths on them. To me, nothing was gained but pain for others. Some things are better left unknown, and the family "stories" are all one needs to know. I do not participate, and I have never given my DNA to that kind of database.
    I emphatically disagree.

    My sister, her husband and I have all had DNA tests done. We had been victims of the family stories of which you speak. My sister's husband found out that his 'father's -- the man he knew as his father was not his birth father finding that out has allowed him to discover and recognise his own personal history, understand the dynamics that involving the people in his life, and deepen the respect he has for both men and his mother.

    Our DNA tests (and our subsequent research) allowed my sister and me to discover that much of what our mother had told about our family history was a complete fabrication of half truths and outright lies. Knowing this was especially freeing since it allowed us to explore the truth, escape from the riddle created and left unexplained by her fabrications, and to know who we truly are.

    I will only add that the value of any DNA test is what importance and value one places on what one learns and what doors it may open.
    Adding to this, finding out the truth allowed my sister and me to understand our mother and why she created the myths that we were told.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    The reality of genealogical research is that it is a difficult and complex pursuit that is most closely related to other serious historical research. Successful and validated genealogical research involves an extensive knowledge of history, geography, languages, and such specialized areas such as DNA and paleography.
    Most people, in my direct experience*, are not as rigorous in their 'research' as they think and are happy to accept tenuous links. So, I tend to be cautious of anyone who claims to have 'done their research' and taken their family history back half a millennium or more. Serious historians will often take decades to verify a genealogic line, especially if it is for someone from the 'common class'.

    In the UK one of the aim points is how close you can get to the Domesday records written in 1086. Few come anywhere near it.

    As for DNA tests, a leading commercial enterprise in ancestral DNA replied to the following question which tends to suggest that DNA genealogy is not the magic bullet.

    Can siblings have different ancestral DNA?

    So yes, it is definitely possible for two siblings to get pretty different ancestry results from a DNA test. Even when they share the same parents
    emphasis mine

    I put all this here in the hope that people will exercise sufficient caution with regard to historical DNA matching and its use in genealogy.




    *my direct experience - my brother is a genealogist of some standing in the UK. To the extent that people from all over the country write to him to ask not only for his advice, but for access to his extensive records. We have a tenuous link on one line to a crewman on the Bounty. While this is exciting stuff it cannot be definitively verified and so remains just a fun story.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post

    Most people, in my direct experience*, are not as rigorous in their 'research' as they think and are happy to accept tenuous links. So, I tend to be cautious of anyone who claims to have 'done their research' and taken their family history back half a millennium or more. Serious historians will often take decades to verify a genealogic line, especially if it is for someone from the 'common class'.

    In the UK one of the aim points is how close you can get to the Domesday records written in 1086. Few come anywhere near it.

    As for DNA tests, a leading commercial enterprise in ancestral DNA replied to the following question which tends to suggest that DNA genealogy is not the magic bullet.

    Can siblings have different ancestral DNA?

    So yes, it is definitely possible for two siblings to get pretty different ancestry results from a DNA test. Even when they share the same parents
    emphasis mine

    I put all this here in the hope that people will exercise sufficient caution with regard to historical DNA matching and its use in genealogy.




    *my direct experience - my brother is a genealogist of some standing in the UK. To the extent that people from all over the country write to him to ask not only for his advice, but for access to his extensive records. We have a tenuous link on one line to a crewman on the Bounty. While this is exciting stuff it cannot be definitively verified and so remains just a fun story.
    Two things:

    First, it is obvious and understandable that siblings other than Identical twins (originating from the same fertilised ovum) will have a different DNA mix. That is a product of the randomness of which genes each parent contributes.

    Secondly, It is true that many amateur researchers take things at face value and don't verify source material. However, any decent researcher of any subject qualifies data by the number of unrelated sources it has. A fact is considered more credible with the more unrelated sources confirming it For instance, researching my late wife's ancestry through the 19th and early 20th centuries, we relied upon Australian, British, and Irish legal documents and court records, ship's manifests, births, deaths and marriages certificates and records, and church records that could be accurately cross-referenced. Anything less than three records listing identical data (including persons, place, dates, event) was considered possible. Some of what we found and documented regarding two particular direct ancestors proved the accepted oral history to be greatly 'embellished'.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I don't recommend it. But some of my family members would say the opposite. As a result of entering the genetic data-base pool, we have discovered some other children that my father had (prior to my mother, out of wedlock). Those other families had not all been told certain truths, then these revelations forced some truths on them. To me, nothing was gained but pain for others. Some things are better left unknown, and the family "stories" are all one needs to know. I do not participate, and I have never given my DNA to that kind of database.
    I emphatically disagree.
    My brothers would agree with you. They persued the truth, whatever the consequences (some good, some bad). It's a double-edged sword that cuts in two directions. And some people swing it blindly.
    It is really important to remember that we are not responsible for the actions or misdeeds of those in our families who pre-date us. Whether an ancestor was a hero or a scoundrel is no reflection on us personally.
    Sure. Only in the strictist of logical scenarios, however.

    Many, many families have a good bit of their identity and sense of purpose in the stories of their past. This sense of legacy is a stong human trait in tribes and families. Some people can reject this, logically. But in many families, with many other people, the patterns of the past can bring with them great remorse and shame and pain.

    In AA there is a caveat about making amends to others (eg, telling them the truth): don't tell people the truth for your needs alone if that truth is going to hurt them. There has to be a greater, healing purpose for all. I agree with that. This is why I have great hesitancy in this field and do not participate.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Quote Originally Posted by An old bloke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post

    Most people, in my direct experience*, are not as rigorous in their 'research' as they think and are happy to accept tenuous links. So, I tend to be cautious of anyone who claims to have 'done their research' and taken their family history back half a millennium or more. Serious historians will often take decades to verify a genealogic line, especially if it is for someone from the 'common class'.

    In the UK one of the aim points is how close you can get to the Domesday records written in 1086. Few come anywhere near it.

    As for DNA tests, a leading commercial enterprise in ancestral DNA replied to the following question which tends to suggest that DNA genealogy is not the magic bullet.

    Can siblings have different ancestral DNA?

    So yes, it is definitely possible for two siblings to get pretty different ancestry results from a DNA test. Even when they share the same parents
    emphasis mine

    I put all this here in the hope that people will exercise sufficient caution with regard to historical DNA matching and its use in genealogy.




    *my direct experience - my brother is a genealogist of some standing in the UK. To the extent that people from all over the country write to him to ask not only for his advice, but for access to his extensive records. We have a tenuous link on one line to a crewman on the Bounty. While this is exciting stuff it cannot be definitively verified and so remains just a fun story.
    Two things:

    First, it is obvious and understandable that siblings other than Identical twins (originating from the same fertilised ovum) will have a different DNA mix. That is a product of the randomness of which genes each parent contributes.

    Secondly, It is true that many amateur researchers take things at face value and don't verify source material. However, any decent researcher of any subject qualifies data by the number of unrelated sources it has. A fact is considered more credible with the more unrelated sources confirming it For instance, researching my late wife's ancestry through the 19th and early 20th centuries, we relied upon Australian, British, and Irish legal documents and court records, ship's manifests, births, deaths and marriages certificates and records, and church records that could be accurately cross-referenced. Anything less than three records listing identical data (including persons, place, dates, event) was considered possible. Some of what we found and documented regarding two particular direct ancestors proved the accepted oral history to be greatly 'embellished'.



    You're second point echoes what I had said, and I totally agree. Historical research is rarely simple or easy.

    On the first point, I didn't express my thoughts clearly enough. I guess what I am really getting at is two things, that even siblings will have different gene maps and that it is quite unlikely that anyone's ancestors have had their genes mapped so matching is not possible. What gene mapping could tell us is that person A may be related to person B, in which case they could share their genealogical databases to populate branches of their tree, but it is by no means certain.

    It's an interesting area, and I think that it has been pushed in a commercial sense, though I remain cautious about proving links with it.

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    Default Re: DNA tests

    Proving familial links requires referencing accurate family trees to trace a common ancestor.

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