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Thread: The Dobbs Decision

  1. #21
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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    ... and how will this impact the societal issues tied to guns?

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
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    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    ... and how will this impact the societal issues tied to guns?
    wha?

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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    There are US states in which people are charged with murder if, for example, they shoot a pregnant woman with a gun and the shooting causes the baby (fetus, if you prefer, or foetus for that matter) to die, while in the same state elective abortion at a later state of development is legal.
    Last edited by Niner; June 29th, 2022 at 10:38 PM. Reason: clarifican of US civic terminology

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    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Niner View Post
    There are US states in which people are charged with murder if, for example, they shoot a pregnant woman with a gun and the shooting causes the baby (fetus, if you prefer, or foetus for that matter) to die, while in the same state elective abortion at a later state of development is legal.
    That's bizarre. Which states?

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  6. #25
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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Niner View Post
    There are US states in which people are charged with murder if, for example, they shoot a pregnant woman with a gun and the shooting causes the baby (fetus, if you prefer, or foetus for that matter) to die, while in the same state elective abortion at a later state of development is legal.
    I believe that gestational age of that fetus matters.

  7. #26
    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    State Fetal Homicide Laws

    Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 29 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation/development," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization")
    and

    The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law that recognizes an embryo or fetus in utero as a legal victim, if they are injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines "child in utero" as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    I’ve already mentioned Scott Peterson being charged in the death of his wife and unborn child.

    Ted, I think your wrangling with words. Obviously, the only thing that makes a unborn a person is whether or not it’s wanted.

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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    ... Obviously, the only thing that makes a unborn a person is whether or not it’s wanted.
    Not in law.



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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    ... Obviously, the only thing that makes a unborn a person is whether or not it’s wanted.
    Not in law.



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    Scott Peterson’s conviction shows otherwise, Ted.

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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    ... Obviously, the only thing that makes a unborn a person is whether or not it’s wanted.
    Not in law.



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    Scott Peterson’s conviction shows otherwise, Ted.
    My point is that no law states the words that you wrote.

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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    ... Obviously, the only thing that makes a unborn a person is whether or not it’s wanted.
    Not in law.



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    Scott Peterson’s conviction shows otherwise, Ted.
    My point is that no law states the words that you wrote.

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    Oh, as I heard old people say when I was a child, "do as I say, not as I do". As much as it may be difficult for you to admit, personhood is determined by the female wanting or not wanting the child. Only an irrational person with an agenda thinks a 15 week old fetus is any less human or an individual than either me or you.

  15. #32
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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    ... Obviously, the only thing that makes a unborn a person is whether or not it’s wanted.
    Not in law.



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    Scott Peterson’s conviction shows otherwise, Ted.
    My point is that no law states the words that you wrote.

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    Oh, as I heard old people say when I was a child, "do as I say, not as I do". As much as it may be difficult for you to admit, personhood is determined by the female wanting or not wanting the child. Only an irrational person with an agenda thinks a 15 week old fetus is any less human or an individual than either me or you.
    Morality and law are not the same thing. Even the state laws covering fetal homicide mostly do not recognize "murder" unless the fetus is over 20 weeks gestation ("viability"). And if the mother causes the death, it is not "murder" at all (she can water-ski if she wants, or sky dive, or even commit a crime. If the fetus dies, she cannot be charged with "murder.") And all legal abortion deaths are not prosecutable as "murder." These fetal death laws are mostly about adding years of incarceration to felons (these laws apply to felony crimes only) who attack or harm mothers (or their unborn children).

    My point is that the law(s) does not say the things that you do. These laws are not attempts to define when legal personhood begins, nor what "personhood" even means. And they are not making any moral definitions either, particularly since there are many exceptions or exemptions to the laws.

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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Niner View Post
    There are US states in which people are charged with murder if, for example, they shoot a pregnant woman with a gun and the shooting causes the baby (fetus, if you prefer, or foetus for that matter) to die, while in the same state elective abortion at a later state of development is legal.
    That's bizarre. Which states?

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
    I can't produce an exhaustive list off the top of my head. California for one, though.

  18. #34
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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    ... Obviously, the only thing that makes a unborn a person is whether or not it’s wanted.
    Not in law.



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    Scott Peterson’s conviction shows otherwise, Ted.
    My point is that no law states the words that you wrote.

    Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk
    Oh, as I heard old people say when I was a child, "do as I say, not as I do". As much as it may be difficult for you to admit, personhood is determined by the female wanting or not wanting the child. Only an irrational person with an agenda thinks a 15 week old fetus is any less human or an individual than either me or you.
    Morality and law are not the same thing. Even the state laws covering fetal homicide mostly do not recognize "murder" unless the fetus is over 20 weeks gestation ("viability"). And if the mother causes the death, it is not "murder" at all (she can water-ski if she wants, or sky dive, or even commit a crime. If the fetus dies, she cannot be charged with "murder.") And all legal abortion deaths are not prosecutable as "murder." These fetal death laws are mostly about adding years of incarceration to felons (these laws apply to felony crimes only) who attack or harm mothers (or their unborn children).

    My point is that the law(s) does not say the things that you do. These laws are not attempts to define when legal personhood begins, nor what "personhood" even means. And they are not making any moral definitions either, particularly since there are many exceptions or exemptions to the laws.
    I’m not discussing morals. Scott Peterson was convicted of his unborn child’s death that he was found to be guilty of causing.

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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Niner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Niner View Post
    There are US states in which people are charged with murder if, for example, they shoot a pregnant woman with a gun and the shooting causes the baby (fetus, if you prefer, or foetus for that matter) to die, while in the same state elective abortion at a later state of development is legal.
    That's bizarre. Which states?

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
    I can't produce an exhaustive list off the top of my head. California for one, though.
    I looked at several states' fetal homicide laws. They each had exemptions for legal abortion. The fetal homicide laws were only to criminalize the injury or death of an unborn child during the commission of a felony.

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  21. #36
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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Niner View Post
    I can't produce an exhaustive list off the top of my head. California for one, though.
    If you will revisit post 26, you will see the exhaustive list, with link to the National Conference of State Legislatures which goes into further detail.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    As previously stated, if you wanted the child, it’s a person.

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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    As previously stated, if you wanted the child, it’s a person.
    In early stages, they are future persons, yes.

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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Niner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Niner View Post
    There are US states in which people are charged with murder if, for example, they shoot a pregnant woman with a gun and the shooting causes the baby (fetus, if you prefer, or foetus for that matter) to die, while in the same state elective abortion at a later state of development is legal.
    That's bizarre. Which states?

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
    I can't produce an exhaustive list off the top of my head. California for one, though.
    I looked at several states' fetal homicide laws. They each had exemptions for legal abortion. The fetal homicide laws were only to criminalize the injury or death of an unborn child during the commission of a felony.
    I agree.

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    Default Re: The Dobbs Decision

    As I've previously stated.

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