The Dobbs Decision

[TFarnon]

Then call me irrational. Until a fetus passes about 22 weeks, it simply isn't viable outside of its host (the mother). It may have the potential to become a human, but it isn't one until it can at least nominally survive without being physically enmeshed with the host. And even at 24 weeks, a premature baby is so fragile once outside the womb that I have my doubts about even trying to keep it alive. Its intestines are so delicate that mere peristalsis can cause tearing or blockage due to tangling. Upsets in the gut microbiota can cause necrosis. The brain blood vessels are so fine that they can spontaneously rupture, causing brain bleeds. The lungs aren't fully mature, and artificial surfactant often has to be supplied just so those lungs don't stick to themselves and collapse. The bone marrow isn't very good at making blood cells (red, white and platelets) yet. The immune system is essentially nonexistent. The liver can barely (if even that much) keep up with the toxins that are produced simply by being alive. And that's at 24 weeks.

[TFarnon]

Potentially future persons. Roughly one in three pregnancies end in spontaneous (unintended) miscarriage. A fertilized ovum is not guaranteed to be viable, even in the womb, much less outside of it, and even with the most advanced medical care available.

[TSherbs]

Potentially future persons. Roughly one in three pregnancies end in spontaneous (unintended) miscarriage. A fertilized ovum is not guaranteed to be viable, even in the womb, much less outside of it, and even with the most advanced medical care available.

Exactly. Just think how many unborn "person's" deaths need to be examined by the police, therefore, as a result of granting these early potential humans their full "personhood" at conception.

One statistician once published a paper on how many fertilized ova he estimated per year were sloughed off in menstruation (in other words, "terminated" after unprotected sex close in time to menstruation). I read it (over ten years ago) but I don't remember the number. It was high. NFP actually commits "homicide" if you get absurdly strict with these definitions of when personhood begins.

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[Chuck Naill]

Whether you say you think the unborn is a person or not, you know enough to know that brought to term or near, a person will result.

What is dishonest is being frivolous.

[TSherbs]

Chuck, when would you say a fertilized embryo (human in the making) should legally be given some of the rights and protections of personhood?

The range of choice is from moment of conception to moment of first breath outside of the womb at birth. I pick @ 20 weeks (the safe side of viability). What is your choice?

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[Chuck Naill]

I think contraception is a prerequisite. A member just posted his wife got pregnant while on Acutane which has teratogenic warnings.

Would you be okay with a person aborting any age because the male was too fucking lazy to not impregnate? And if the male claims to be a physician? That’s nuts.

Stop conception and your question is moot

[Chuck Naill]

What we are really talking about is using abortion as birth control. Abortion for mothers health, rape/incest, and such as always been an option.

[TSherbs]

Chuck, when would you say a fertilized embryo (human in the making) should legally be given some of the rights and protections of personhood?

The range of choice is from moment of conception to moment of first breath outside of the womb at birth. I pick @ 20 weeks (the safe side of viability). What is your choice?

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I'll repeat my question.

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[TSherbs]

.....

Would you be okay with a person aborting any age ....

No. How many times do I have to say that my cutoff is 20 weeks. Prior to that: yes, abortion on demand without limitations or regulations.

[TFarnon]

Not necessarily. If by "person" you mean a living organism with the requisite number of chromosomes and the characteristic genome of a human, then I can't even begin to argue with that. If you mean a sentient being with same, then I can argue. Some of those unborn are born anencephalic. That is, they will never be sentient even if they are living, because they are missing critical parts of their brains and/or skulls. Not every fetus will make it to personhood, even with the best of care. I don't think it's fair to compel a woman to carry a terminal fetus to term. I don't think it's fair to allow that fetus to be born and spend its (hopefully) short life hooked up to machines in a neverland of pain, noise and intrusive interventions. We can't always know which fetuses have no chance of any kind of decent life, but we do know some of the time. That's the problem with blanket bans against late term abortions.

[TFarnon]

Abortion is not used as birth control in the sense conveyed in talking points. If you are male, you have never experienced an abortion. I have. While it was not traumatic, it was deeply uncomfortable during the procedure. Think something along the lines of a sigmoidoscopy with no pain relief or sedation to a vigorous rectal exam that went on for a bit too long. Or the cramping--on the order of the cramps just before explosive diarrhea when you hold it long enough to scuttle to the restroom. Now think of those cramps for 15 to 30 minutes before you can get relief.

Abortion is what some women use when their regular method of birth control (anything from abstinence to rhythm method to physical barriers to medication to surgical sterilization) fails. It's expensive enough and uncomfortable enough that it's not a monthly, probably not even an annual thing. It's not an "Oh, woopsie! I had unprotected sex! I'll just book an abortion with my provider" thing. That's not to say that every woman regrets having an abortion. I had my abortion. Then I had a grilled cheddar sandwich on honey wheat berry bread. It was the first food I was able to keep down in over a week. Nothing ever tasted so good.

[Chuck Naill]

.....

Would you be okay with a person aborting any age ....

No. How many times do I have to say that my cutoff is 20 weeks. Prior to that: yes, abortion on demand without limitations or regulations.

I have no problem with you liking the 20 week cut off. My problem is that it’s arbitrary and based on your opinions that someone be produced on week 21, or 7 more days, or 21 more days abortion is suddenly off limits.

[Chuck Naill]

I’ve always taken birth control as a responsibility as a male. I didn’t like for her to take the oral contraceptives, so I got a vasectomy when our family was complete.

I believe contraceptives or devices should be free for all and a private matter. I remember having to request a pack of condoms which were stored behind the pharmacy counter. That didn’t encourage use.

[TSherbs]

.....

Would you be okay with a person aborting any age ....

No. How many times do I have to say that my cutoff is 20 weeks. Prior to that: yes, abortion on demand without limitations or regulations.

I have no problem with you liking the 20 week cut off. My problem is that it’s arbitrary....

What cut off do you "like"? I keep asking, but you don't answer.



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[Chuck Naill]

.....

Would you be okay with a person aborting any age ....

No. How many times do I have to say that my cutoff is 20 weeks. Prior to that: yes, abortion on demand without limitations or regulations.

I have no problem with you liking the 20 week cut off. My problem is that it’s arbitrary....

What cut off do you "like"? I keep asking, but you don't answer.



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There is no cut off. I just would prefer honesty that abortion is what it is. Just say, I’m going to end the pregnancy. The hard luck stories of a person having a bunch of children, unmarried, and then pregnant has to be responded toward with more than sympathy. However, seen prevention is not available for no cost, she might not be able to do anything but abstain. I don’t expect humans not to have sex.

There are many reasons that are legitimate for ending a pregnancy such as has been mentioned often.

It would seem to me that I’d prevention was readily available and free, abortion would be used only in the case of medical necessity, rape, and incest.

[TSherbs]

.....

Would you be okay with a person aborting any age ....

No. How many times do I have to say that my cutoff is 20 weeks. Prior to that: yes, abortion on demand without limitations or regulations.

I have no problem with you liking the 20 week cut off. My problem is that it’s arbitrary....

What cut off do you "like"? I keep asking, but you don't answer.



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There is no cut off. I just would prefer honesty that abortion is what it is. Just say, I’m going to end the pregnancy. The hard luck stories of a person having a bunch of children, unmarried, and then pregnant has to be responded toward with more than sympathy. However, seen prevention is not available for no cost, she might not be able to do anything but abstain. I don’t expect humans not to have sex.

There are many reasons that are legitimate for ending a pregnancy such as has been mentioned often.

It would seem to me that I’d prevention was readily available and free, abortion would be used only in the case of medical necessity, rape, and incest.

You are for abortion on demand regardless of fetal age?

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[Chuck Naill]

.....

Would you be okay with a person aborting any age ....

No. How many times do I have to say that my cutoff is 20 weeks. Prior to that: yes, abortion on demand without limitations or regulations.

I have no problem with you liking the 20 week cut off. My problem is that it’s arbitrary....

What cut off do you "like"? I keep asking, but you don't answer.



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There is no cut off. I just would prefer honesty that abortion is what it is. Just say, I’m going to end the pregnancy. The hard luck stories of a person having a bunch of children, unmarried, and then pregnant has to be responded toward with more than sympathy. However, seen prevention is not available for no cost, she might not be able to do anything but abstain. I don’t expect humans not to have sex.

There are many reasons that are legitimate for ending a pregnancy such as has been mentioned often.

It would seem to me that I’d prevention was readily available and free, abortion would be used only in the case of medical necessity, rape, and incest.

You are for abortion on demand regardless of fetal age?

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No.

I’m gifting this to you.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/03/u...core-ios-share

[TSherbs]

You are for abortion on demand regardless of fetal age?

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No.

Do you support abortion as a legal option for women at some other more narrow and specific age of the fetus?

[Chuck Naill]

Anytime the mothers life is in danger, and abortion is the only option, it must be an option.

I have a problem putting a person in jail for choosing to abort. The SCOTUS might think it’s illegal, but that’s a narrow perspective.

Again, since sex is as human as eating, preventing is more safe and prevents the moral dilemma. And, it’s a safer option with less mental anguish.

[TSherbs]

Anytime the mothers life is in danger, and abortion is the only option, it must be an option.

I have a problem putting a person in jail for choosing to abort. The SCOTUS might think it’s illegal, but that’s a narrow perspective.

Again, since sex is as human as eating, preventing is more safe and prevents the moral dilemma. And, it’s a safer option with less mental anguish.

So this means no elective abortions for anyone, right?

No abortion pill, either?

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