Coaches praying on field of competition

[Chuck Naill]

Thank you for posting, Ted. To me if makes the Supreme Court look like they didn’t do their homework. Now they look like anyone not dong their homework, unprepared and undisciplined.

[welch]

The coach is acting as a "religious teacher", as Patrick Henry meant in 1785, when Henry proposed a bill by which Virginia would pay the salaries of all "religious teachers". The issue was that Virginia had dis-established the Church of England, so Henry wanted any Christian preacher -- Baptist, Presbyterian, or Anglican -- supported by the state. That is what the Supreme Court Six supports.

James Madison replied that mixing religion and government hurts both. Read his "Memorial and Remonstrance", an earlier statement of what went into the amendment to the Constitution.

Incidentally, the Constitution is worded so that no government can make a law establishing a religion. As each state dis-established its state church, it was forbidden to establish another. The last of them, I think, was Massachusetts, which dis-established The Standing Order of New England (we remember it as the "Congregational" church -- now the UCC) about 1830. The Court seems to have established this guy's church, whatever he calls it, to be funded by the school district.

Here is Madison.

https://founders.archives.gov/docume.../01-08-02-0163

The intro in the National Archives here is first-rate, and important to get an understanding of what Madison is arguing. Madison, himself, is clear. He sets what has been the American understanding of the separation of state and church, or at least what had been in the foundation of American thought until this Supreme Court.

[Chuck Naill]

That’s your opinion or else, but thanks for posting.

It’s obvious the intent was not to establish a religion as was the norm in England as a prerequisite for political participation.

[dneal]

Incidentally, the Constitution is worded so that no government can make a law establishing a religion

Also incidentally, it forbids the government from prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

[TSherbs]

This, to me, is a no brainer case, mostly because it involves a state-paid instructor of children (wards of the state while at school).

1) The coach's duties and resposibilities do not end when the game ends. We coaches (I have been one and have been instructed in this by school lawyers) are responsible for the care and well-being of our wards until they are handed off to legal guardians or until they leave school grounds no longer under our supervision (driving themselves or in the cars of others or walking home, etc). No matter if the players are on a bus waiting, or are in a lockerroom dressing or are in transit from the field of play to the lockerroom, or even if the students are waiting to be picked up by parents, the coach(es) is the primary adult responsible for the well-being and care of the players.

2) The field of play after a game is not a "private" space. It is where teams practice, meet, talk, strategize, and compete in games. No expectation of actual "privacy" can be reasonably held on a field of play (indoors or outdoors).

3) Adult/coach behavior, of all kinds, has an affect on the wards under our care. We are repeatedly told that we are "the models" for school values and rules and expectations, etc. What is "seen" or "heard" that we do can be more potent than lectures or rule-statements. We are told this by our administrators and by our lawyers.

4) It is not an unreasonable nor burdensome limitation to ask a coach not to make a visible demonstration of his/her adherence to any one religion on a field of play after a game. He is not being told that he can't pray at all. He is being asked not to pray a certain way and at a certain time to avoid the "modeling" of a particular faith as part of his efforts to coach his team in a public location on school grounds.

5) The SC has moved too far to the side of allowing prayer at schools (it is lost on no one that this is Christian prayer, of course) under the guise of limiting atttempts to regulate the exercise of religion.

[Chip]

It'd be more fun to have coaches lead opposing prayers: Lord, lend us your flaming sword to smite the Eastside High heathen and drive them bleeding from the field, etc.

Each coach could have five minutes and there'd be an electronic vote.

When I was in New Zealand, I thought this was cool.

[welch]

That’s your opinion or else, but thanks for posting.

It’s obvious the intent was not to establish a religion as was the norm in England as a prerequisite for political participation.

You have missed the meaning of an established religion. The Constitution forbids the government from paying for a church. That is the the establishment of religion. Read Madison, who knows better than you do, what he meant. The coach is employed by the school board, yet he wants to organize a religious service in the middle of the school's football field.

Also incidentally, it forbids the government from prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Read Madison and read the Constitution. Madison argues against, and the Constitution forbids exactly what the coach has done. He is using his authority as a paid football coach and teacher to push players to join him on the 50 yard line for a public prayer. As noted above, it is anti-Christian. It is heresy and boasting rather than practicing religion. As Madison warns in The Memorial and Remonstrance, this is how a government harms religion. Notice that Madison also warns that religion then threatens a free government.

The Supreme Court majority has stepped on the throat of James Madison, who, of course, knows far better what he intended than do Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Roberts, and the rest. It has burned the US Constitution.

[dneal]

read the Constitution.

I did, so I added an important part you omitted.

[Chuck Naill]

You have missed the meaning of an established religion. The Constitution forbids the government from paying for a church. That is the the establishment of religion. Read Madison, who knows better than you do, what he meant. The coach is employed by the school board, yet he wants to organize a religious service in the middle of the school's football field.

Also incidentally, it forbids the government from prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Read Madison and read the Constitution. Madison argues against, and the Constitution forbids exactly what the coach has done. He is using his authority as a paid football coach and teacher to push players to join him on the 50 yard line for a public prayer. As noted above, it is anti-Christian. It is heresy and boasting rather than practicing religion. As Madison warns in The Memorial and Remonstrance, this is how a government harms religion. Notice that Madison also warns that religion then threatens a free government.

The Supreme Court majority has stepped on the throat of James Madison, who, of course, knows far better what he intended than do Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Roberts, and the rest. It has burned the US Constitution.

A church is not a building as apparently you thought it did.

Allowing a state paid employee to establish Christian prayer does not establish, but doesn’t allows for other religious affiliations.

[TSherbs]

You have missed the meaning of an established religion. The Constitution forbids the government from paying for a church. That is the the establishment of religion. Read Madison, who knows better than you do, what he meant. The coach is employed by the school board, yet he wants to organize a religious service in the middle of the school's football field.

Also incidentally, it forbids the government from prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Read Madison and read the Constitution. Madison argues against, and the Constitution forbids exactly what the coach has done. He is using his authority as a paid football coach and teacher to push players to join him on the 50 yard line for a public prayer. As noted above, it is anti-Christian. It is heresy and boasting rather than practicing religion. As Madison warns in The Memorial and Remonstrance, this is how a government harms religion. Notice that Madison also warns that religion then threatens a free government.

The Supreme Court majority has stepped on the throat of James Madison, who, of course, knows far better what he intended than do Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Roberts, and the rest. It has burned the US Constitution.

A church is not a building as apparently you thought it did.

Allowing a state paid employee to establish Christian prayer does not establish, but doesn’t allows for other religious affiliations.

The process of elevating or legitimizing one religion above or ahead of others is one of the definitions of "establish," particularly when talking about state employees in charge of children. No one is talking about "building" any thing here. The man asked to conduct "private prayer" in a non-private location in a non-private manner while still performing the duties of his job for the state.

[welch]

You have missed the meaning of an established religion. The Constitution forbids the government from paying for a church. That is the the establishment of religion. Read Madison, who knows better than you do, what he meant. The coach is employed by the school board, yet he wants to organize a religious service in the middle of the school's football field.

Also incidentally, it forbids the government from prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Read Madison and read the Constitution. Madison argues against, and the Constitution forbids exactly what the coach has done. He is using his authority as a paid football coach and teacher to push players to join him on the 50 yard line for a public prayer. As noted above, it is anti-Christian. It is heresy and boasting rather than practicing religion. As Madison warns in The Memorial and Remonstrance, this is how a government harms religion. Notice that Madison also warns that religion then threatens a free government.

The Supreme Court majority has stepped on the throat of James Madison, who, of course, knows far better what he intended than do Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Roberts, and the rest. It has burned the US Constitution.

A church is not a building as apparently you thought it did.

Allowing a state paid employee to establish Christian prayer does not establish, but doesn’t allows for other religious affiliations.

A church is a religious organization. It is NOT a building, and no one thinks it is. Didn't you read Madison? His point is that the government should never pay a preacher. In Patrick Henry's jargon, a preacher was meant to be a religious educator. That, like this coach, is exactly what James Madison argued against in the Remonstrance, what what he forbid in the Constitution as establishing religion.

I did, so I added an important part you omitted.

Clear that you are not reading the US Constitution. The coach is an employee of the government. As a school teacher and as a football coach, he has power and influence over kids. He was free to go someplace private and to pray, and, thereby, to exercise his religion freely. Before this week, he was not free to use his authority as a teacher to bring kids -- hypocritically and in an anti-Christian way -- to the center of the football field, where he could have the biggest audience.

Do either of you understand what Virginia did when it dis-established religion? Do you understand that no government, at least in the USA, is allowed to re-establish a GOVERNMENT SUPPORTED religion?

[dneal]

Welch, you cited a portion of the first amendment that supports your point and omitted the following portion that doesn’t. Your “read the constitution” bit is silly.

You can have your opinion. SCOTUS had a different one. What happened to “the courts have decided…”?

Next thing you know, somebody will be reaching for the steering wheel and inciting an insurrection.

[TFarnon]

I wouldn't be averse to a coach simply pointing skywards after a game (win or lose) as a way of expressing thanks to his or her chosen deity. I have an issue with the kind of display that the coaches own religious book expressly condemns.

On a secular level, I strongly object to someone who is in a position to exert power, by granting or not granting play time to athletes, based on whether those athletes join the coach in prayer. It doesn't matter if the coach is completely impartial. It's the mere potential for an abuse of power that is unacceptable.

[Chuck Naill]

You have missed the meaning of an established religion. The Constitution forbids the government from paying for a church. That is the the establishment of religion. Read Madison, who knows better than you do, what he meant. The coach is employed by the school board, yet he wants to organize a religious service in the middle of the school's football field.

Also incidentally, it forbids the government from prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

Read Madison and read the Constitution. Madison argues against, and the Constitution forbids exactly what the coach has done. He is using his authority as a paid football coach and teacher to push players to join him on the 50 yard line for a public prayer. As noted above, it is anti-Christian. It is heresy and boasting rather than practicing religion. As Madison warns in The Memorial and Remonstrance, this is how a government harms religion. Notice that Madison also warns that religion then threatens a free government.

The Supreme Court majority has stepped on the throat of James Madison, who, of course, knows far better what he intended than do Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Roberts, and the rest. It has burned the US Constitution.

A church is not a building as apparently you thought it did.

Allowing a state paid employee to establish Christian prayer does not establish, but doesn’t allows for other religious affiliations.

The process of elevating or legitimizing one religion above or ahead of others is one of the definitions of "establish," particularly when talking about state employees in charge of children. No one is talking about "building" any thing here. The man asked to conduct "private prayer" in a non-private location in a non-private manner while still performing the duties of his job for the state.

A building, not building.

[Chuck Naill]

The skyward point has always given me a laugh. As if God is somewhere above. My father used to refer to God as “The Man Upstairs “. Why is God not seen as being everywhere?

I grew up thinking the church was a building. Children couldn’t run in the church as It was God’s house. Imagine that a little white clapboard building in the sticks is where God resided.

The Jewish temple and RCC traditions really shaped the American concept of church.

[welch]

Welch, you cited a portion of the first amendment that supports your point and omitted the following portion that doesn’t. Your “read the constitution” bit is silly.

You can have your opinion. SCOTUS had a different one. What happened to “the courts have decided…”?

Next thing you know, somebody will be reaching for the steering wheel and inciting an insurrection.

This Supreme Court made a bad decision. That's the point. And the Constitution should not be read to contradict itself: if neither the federal government nor a state government can establish religion, then the free exercise of religion cannot mean that a government employee can use his power to draw students to the 50 yard line -- the center of attention -- in a government-provided football field to hold a prayer meeting.

Why do you think the current Supreme Court Six has more insight into the religious establishment clause than James Madison?

[Chuck Naill]

Welch, you cited a portion of the first amendment that supports your point and omitted the following portion that doesn’t. Your “read the constitution” bit is silly.

You can have your opinion. SCOTUS had a different one. What happened to “the courts have decided…”?

Next thing you know, somebody will be reaching for the steering wheel and inciting an insurrection.

Coming to a theater near you, Justice Thomas and the revisiting of a free press.

You, @dneal, do the same with the 2nd. Obviously it speaks of citizens being able to own a firearm to defend the nation, but you leave that section out when you speak.

[Chuck Naill]

The Supreme Court Six demonstrate the frailty of man for which education does not overcome. People simply do what’s right in their own minds.

[TSherbs]

On a similar note, teacher training on the separation of church and state in Florida:

https://floridaphoenix.com/2022/07/0...rch-and-state/

Sent from my moto g power using Tapatalk

[Chuck Naill]

I can only conclude that these Republicans thinks more people think like them than actually exist.