Coaches praying on field of competition

[TSherbs]

The SC got this one wrong, too:

CBS News: Supreme Court sides with high school football coach who lost his job for praying after games.

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/supreme-court-joe-kennedy-high-school-football-coach-school-prayer-case/?ftag=CNM-00-10aag7e

Once again, Trump's three appointments in four years brings the court backwards in protecting young people from religious coercion on state property under state supervision. Go Christian warriors!

[Lloyd]

What's wrong if the coach prays on the field after the game?
After reading more, I agree with you. The school shouldn't have to permit it.
Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

What's wrong if the coach prays on the field after the game?
After reading more, I agree with you. The school shouldn't have to permit it.
Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

Indeed, the school should not have to. And the wards of the coach/school/state should not be compelled to make a decision about whether to follow a coach's lead in prayer on the premises of the school (on the field of play) before the adult's (and school's) supervisory responsibilities have ended.

But things are different now with this court's make-up.

[TSherbs]

Chuck, you might take a look at the June issue of The Atlantic. It has a strong article on the changes of the evangelical churches, especially around politics, since the time of Reagan.

[dneal]

Kennedy v Bremerton

Joseph Kennedy lost his job as a high school football coach because he knelt at midfield after games to offer a quiet prayer of thanks. Mr. Kennedy prayed during a period when school employees were free to speak with a friend, call for a reservation at a restaurant, check email, or attend to other personal matters. He offered his prayers quietly while his students were otherwise occupied. Still, the Bremerton School District disciplined him anyway. It did so because it thought anything less could lead a reasonable observer to conclude (mistakenly) that it endorsed Mr. Kennedy’s religious beliefs. That reasoning was misguided. Both the Free Exercise and Free Speech Clauses of the First Amendment protect expressions like Mr. Kennedy’s. Nor does a proper understanding of the Amendment’s Establishment Clause require the government to single out private religious speech for special disfavor. The Constitution and the best of our traditions counsel mutual respect and tolerance, not censorship and suppression, for religious and nonreligious views alike.

[Lloyd]

I wonder if they would have supported the coach if his faith was Muslim, Wiccan, etc..

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Chip]

If he's praying after the game (for forgiveness?) I won't stand in his way.

Let him sacrifice black chickens or whatever his so-called religion dictates.

[Lloyd]

If he's praying after the game (for forgiveness?) I won't stand in his way.

Let him sacrifice black chickens or whatever his so-called religion dictates.

I was curious if the SC would mandate that the school must allow a Wiccan coach to "pray" on the field after each game.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[ethernautrix]

The separation of church and state doesn't proscribe state employees from holding religious beliefs and expressing them in a merely personal (that is, non-compulsory) -- and unobtrusive -- way.

I see the issue as whether or not the coach -- an authority figure employed by the state -- compelled his team members to pray with him or if he, as an individual, simply expressed his devotion to the will of god as he understands it. If the former -- obviously it's a problem; if the latter, leave him alone, as we would all want to be left alone in such circumstances, to whisper "Praise Allah" or "Blessed be" or "I'm really good at this" or whatever.

[TSherbs]

He had already been caught leading prayer with students in the lockerroom and had been told he had to stop doing that. Now he is out on the 50yrdline of the field immediately after the game, in full view. This guy was interested in more than private, personal prayer, and some students testified to the pressure they felt to join. The coach could have prayed in many places/manners other than full public view on the field of play when he is still acting as the coach of his players. I have prayed many times at school, and I was a coach for 25 years. I would never consider doing what he did. It clearly signals a desire to be seen praying, and that means a desire to have influence, in this case a Christian one.

[Chuck Naill]

Chuck, you might take a look at the June issue of The Atlantic. It has a strong article on the changes of the evangelical churches, especially around politics, since the time of Reagan.

I came up in the time of Francis Sheaffer. He started the idea of evangelical political involvement and civil disobedience for my era in the late 1970’s. Then it was just that believers were trying to be a family with moral values. This was before Reagan.

We were trying to be out of debt, have the family meal, live on a single income, provide Christian education, and live by Biblical standards.

In many ways, politics sort of adulterated what we were doing. We didn’t promote it to others, but lived a quiet life.

I do not think those disciples of Jesus would have ever voted for a Donald Trump.

[Chuck Naill]

Chuck, you might take a look at the June issue of The Atlantic. It has a strong article on the changes of the evangelical churches, especially around politics, since the time of Reagan.

I came up in the time of Francis Sheaffer. He started the idea of evangelical political involvement and civil disobedience for my era in the late 1970’s. Then it was just that believers were trying to be a family with moral values. This was before Reagan.

We were trying to be out of debt, have the family meal, live on a single income, provide Christian education, and live by Biblical standards.

In many ways, politics sort of adulterated what we were doing. We didn’t promote it to others, but lived a quiet life.

I do not think those disciples of Jesus would have ever voted for a Donald Trump.

And prayer was a private matter and not something to be exploited. I would not have participated in such nonsense after a football game.

[dneal]

Facts determined by the court (references to exhibits removed for ease of reading).

Initially, Mr. Kennedy prayed on his own. But over time, some players asked whether they could pray alongside him. Mr. Kennedy responded by saying, “‘This is a free country. You can do what you want.’”. The number of players who joined Mr. Kennedy eventually grew to include most of the team, at least after some games. Sometimes team members invited opposing players to join. Other times Mr. Kennedy still prayed alone. Eventually, Mr. Kennedy began incorporating short motivational speeches with his prayer when others were present. Separately, the team at times engaged in pregame or postgame prayers in the locker room. It seems this practice was a “school tradition” that predated Mr. Kennedy’s tenure. Mr. Kennedy explained that he “never told any student that it was important they participate in any religious activity.” In particular, he “never pressured or encouraged any student to join” his postgame midfield prayers.

For over seven years, no one complained to the Bremerton School District (District) about these practices.

It seems the District’s superintendent first learned of them only in September 2015, after an employee from another school commented positively on the school’s practices to Bremerton’s principal. At that point, the District reacted quickly. On September 17, the superintendent sent Mr. Kennedy a letter. In it, the superintendent identified “two problematic practices” in which Mr. Kennedy had engaged. First, Mr. Kennedy had provided “inspirational talk[s]” that included “overtly religious references” likely constituting “prayer” with the students “at midfield following the completion of . . . game[s].” Second, he had led “students and coaching staff in a prayer” in the locker-room tradition that “predated [his] involvement with the program.”

The District explained that it sought to establish “clear parameters” “going forward.” It instructed Mr. Kennedy to avoid any motivational “talks with students” that “include[d] religious expression, including prayer,” and to avoid “suggest[ing], encourag[ing] (or discourag[ing]), or supervis[ing]” any prayers of students, which students remained free to “engage in.” The District also explained that any religious activity on Mr. Kennedy’s part must be “nondemonstrative (i.e., not outwardly discernible as religious activity)” if “students are also engaged in religious conduct” in order to “avoid the perception of endorsement.” In offering these directives, the District appealed to what it called a “direct tension between” the “Establishment Clause” and “a school employee’s [right to] free[ly] exercise” his religion. To resolve that “tension,” the District explained, an employee’s free exercise rights “must yield so far as necessary to avoid school endorsement of religious activities.”

After receiving the District’s September 17 letter, Mr. Kennedy ended the tradition, predating him, of offering locker-room prayers. He also ended his practice of incorporating religious references or prayer into his postgame motivational talks to his team on the field.

On October 14, through counsel, Mr. Kennedy sent a letter to school officials informing them that, because of his “sincerely-held religious beliefs,” he felt “compelled” to offer a “post-game personal prayer” of thanks at midfield. He asked the District to allow him to continue that “private religious expression” alone. Consistent with the District’s policy, Mr. Kennedy explained that he “neither requests, encourages, nor discourages students from participating in” these prayers, Mr. Kennedy emphasized that he sought only the opportunity to “wai[t] until the game is over and the players have left the field and then wal[k] to mid-field to say a short, private, personal prayer.” He “told everybody” that it would be acceptable to him to pray “when the kids went away from [him].” He later clarified that this meant he was even willing to say his “prayer while the players were walking to the locker room” or “bus,” and then catch up with his team. However, Mr. Kennedy objected to the logical implication of the District’s September 17 letter, which he understood as banning him “from bowing his head” in the vicinity of students, and as requiring him to “flee the scene if students voluntarily [came] to the same area” where he was praying. After all, District policy prohibited him from “discourag[ing]” independent student decisions to pray.

[Chuck Naill]

Apparently there is more history and information for which you might not be aware.

Sure, if it was as simple as a locker room event, no problem. I’m trying to imagine a coach on his knees in a private place when players discover him and ask to participate.

A prayer of thanksgiving can be as simple as one sentence. Consider The Lord’s Prayer, no any pretense at all.

[Marsilius]

I wonder if someone would be allowed by law to shake a Purim rattle (grager/raashan) in protest during the recitation of the prayer?

[Chuck Naill]

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing(B) in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father,(C) who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling(D) like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.(E) 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need(F) before you ask him.

Matthew 6:5-7

[Chip]

Does a Muslim coach have the right to kill a goat on the 50 yard line for Bakhri Eid?

Hmmmm. . .

[Lloyd]

Does a Muslim coach have the right to kill a goat on the 50 yard line for Bakhri Eid?

Hmmmm. . .

Only if the goat is later bar-b-qued and served in a dry rub.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[ethernautrix]

Probably just as acceptable as performing the sacrament of the eucharist. So... guessing not.

[TSherbs]

Looks like the locals knew the circumstances of the case pretty well. And, it looks like this conservative majority has an *activist agenda.*

The Seattle Times: The myth at the heart of the praying Bremerton coach case.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...S_seattle-news