FBI Raid at Mar-A-Lago

[Lloyd]

As dneal is implying, regardless of how vile Trimp and his actions are, if our legislature can't legally stop him from running in 2024, these media events will get his followers extra determined to get him into office.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

I couldn't fucking care less. I, for one, won't accede to a lie just because it means that the lie would hurt Trump more than the truth will. I'm not in this thread because I am trying to advise a political campaign. I'm just saying that Trump is a repeated liar (which I smell in this case), and that presidents do not have unlimited power, even around handling official documents, as Article 2 of the Const makes clear. They must uphold the laws, even those governing the handling of official documents. And, like I said, Trump doesn't give a shit. My guess is that his followers don't either. I don't give a shit about their opinion either.

[Lloyd]

I couldn't fucking care less. I, for one, won't accede to a lie just because it means that the lie would hurt Trump more than the truth will. I'm not in this thread because I am trying to advise a political campaign. I'm just saying that Trump is a repeated liar (which I smell in this case), and that presidents do not have unlimited power, even around handling official documents, as Article 2 of the Const makes clear. They must uphold the laws, even those governing the handling of official documents. And, like I said, Trump doesn't give a shit. My guess is that his followers don't either. I don't give a shit about their opinion either.

I never meant to imply that you (nor anyone) should remain silent. In fact, I feel the opposite. The issue is the media's premature over-hype of the potential "evils" that Trump MIGHT be jailed for. With each over-publishized allegation that doesn't result in a punishable event, his minions grow stronger. Trump is great at conning his fan base via manipulating his media... having no conscience and being a mercenary egomaniac gives him a big advantage.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

Trump is great at conning his fan base via manipulating his media... having no conscience and being a mercenary egomaniac gives him a big advantage.

No, it doesn't. I disagree. This just means that he can manipulate some fools. It's a tactic, not an advantage. Again, you have to pick your hierarchy of values. Whether Trump's base is energized is low on my values list. I actually think we should scream truth against the lies. Louder and louder. Bannon says fill the zone with shit. I say scream the truth back even louder. Never waver. Those folks hope that we'll tire out and leave the field in discouragement. That people won't be able to discern the truth. Well, only if we let the fog of bullshit hang in the air. Fuck that.

1) Trump is a repeated, habitual prevaricator.

2) Trump's statements around these documents smell and look like his typical prevarication pattern. He has altered his justifications and has lied in these justifications about other facts.

3) presidents do NOT have unlimited powers with document handling and must uphold the law, as Article 2 makes very clear.

[Lloyd]

Trump is great at conning his fan base via manipulating his media... having no conscience and being a mercenary egomaniac gives him a big advantage.

No, it doesn't. I disagree. This just means that he can manipulate some fools. It's a tactic, not an advantage. Again, you have to pick your hierarchy of values. Whether Trump's base is energized is low on my values list. I actually think we should scream truth against the lies. Louder and louder. Bannon says fill the zone with shit. I say scream the truth back even louder. Never waver. Those folks hope that we'll tire out and leave the field in discouragement. That people won't be able to discern the truth. Well, only if we let the fog of bullshit hang in the air. Fuck that.

1) Trump is a repeated, habitual prevaricator.

2) Trump's statements around these documents smell and look like his typical prevarication pattern. He has altered his justifications and has lied in these justifications about other facts.

3) presidents do NOT have unlimited powers with document handling and must uphold the law, as Article 2 makes very clear.

Those "fools", some who are quite bright when not encountering his level of duplicity reinforced by his ego, nearly outnumbered the left in 2020 and did in 2016. Once again, I 100% agree that the people (you and I) should speak out against any governmental illegality. However, yelling before the facts are in only boosts his base. We don't have the full story yet of the documents. If he is announced as guilty before the facts are in and he isn't, it'll be a big boost for him.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

I didn't say he was guilty of anything criminal. That is not a truth. So I'll repeat:

1) Trump has been a repeated liar in the past.

2) I think that he is lying about having declassified those documents while he was president.

3) presidents can't do anything they want with documents. They have to follow the law. It says so in Article 2.

[TSherbs]

Those "fools", some who are quite bright when not encountering his level of duplicity reinforced by his ego, nearly outnumbered the left in 2020 and did in 2016.

Not everyone who voted for Trump is a member of that "base" that believes everything he says. Many republicans held their noses while they voted for him. Again, I am not advising campaign or election strategy. In this thread, I don't care about that. In fact, I only posted to reject dneal's false claim about presidential power. Caring primarily (or exclusively) about election victory is one of the wide roads toward grave ethical error (ends justify the means).

[Chuck Naill]

Trump didn't declassify any of that shit. He's changed his story three times. He's a lying rat who doesn't care about rules and regulations and national security.

The Executive does not have the unlimited power to do so whatever they want, even with classification and the handling of documents. The description of the powers and responsibilities of the presidency also stipulates that they must follow the law. Well, turns out that there are laws governing behaviors with documents. Awe shucks, the president isn't a king.

You don't know what he did or didn't do any more than I did.

Again - "I'm simply saying that a valid defense for him is that he declassified these documents while in office."

You're right that "the executive does not have the unlimited power to do so whatever they want..."; right up until you get to the reality. First one is that for classified information, the president is the final authority.

None of this shit is even new. Dems tried this angle before with the "he revealed classified info to the Russians" nonsense in 2017.

This rabid Trump obsession is going to get him reelected.

If you had the authority, would you allow Trump to ignore laws and everything we know that he did, be excused? And, if so, would that be a better strategy if you didn't want him in office again or if you hope he would against occupy that office? Should Biden call off the FBI, National Archives, and the DOJ? Please don't dodge the question or answer something I didn't ask.

I tend to think these institutions to operate as the miliary on non-partisan manners. That does not make them infallible, and I do not even expect perfection. However, vilifying public servants holds them to a standard most of us couldn't meet.

Some information about a president's power to declassify and the process to do so.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/u...smid=url-share

[Chuck Naill]

As dneal is implying, regardless of how vile Trimp and his actions are, if our legislature can't legally stop him from running in 2024, these media events will get his followers extra determined to get him into office.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

His is not an original thought. The question is, do you allow any former president to ignore the rule of law? Anyone thinking that if Trump is given a pass he will slide off into obscurity is a fool. Plus he has a family ready to slither in.

[TSherbs]

I agree with all of this guy's conclusions at the end:

Tangle

https://www.readtangle.com/trump-fbi-search-mar-a-lago/

[Chuck Naill]

[Lloyd]

This sounds like the cry/lie of a desperate man to me... especially since it came several days after the documents were taken.

Trump demands return of seized documents – by order of social media

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...i-truth-social

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[TSherbs]

That platform should be rebranded as "Whine Social"

[Chip]

Screenplay for a cheesy spy flick—

Ex-president steals boxes of top-secret documents, including nuclear design details and operational intelligence plans, from the White House and stashes them in the basement of his golf club/residence.

Saudi "investor" books a suite at the resort.

Ex-president shuts off the security cameras, sneaks down to the basement, and places the nuclear documents in a plain, brown envelope.

He then visits the suite reserved for the Saudi "businessman" and slips the envelope under the mattress.

The Saudi removes the documents and leaves $20 million in large bills. He checks out early.

The ex-president re-enters the suite and takes the cash.

A Russian "businessman" and a Chinese "philanthropist" reserve suites a week in advance.

[Bold2013]

Interesting video.

FBI Reveals Items Found In Trump's Safe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1zup6iAUVs

[Lloyd]

Like religion, many lock into their political beliefs without relying on any proof aside from what they blindly believed when they were young.

"But merely being tradition does not make something worthy, Kadash. We can't just assume that because something is old it is right."
Brandon Sanderson​

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Chip]

Another limp platitude.

I don't recall having any beliefs concerning Trump when I was young.

I was brought up, by right-wing nut father, member of the John Birch Society, as a raving little conservative.

So— some of us are capable, given experience, and sufficient evidence, of changing our views.

[Lloyd]

Another limp platitude.

I don't recall having any beliefs concerning Trump when I was young.

I was brought up, by right-wing nut father, member of the John Birch Society, as a raving little conservative.

So— some of us are capable, given experience, and sufficient evidence, of changing our views.

The "limp platitude" quote never states that all people act a certain way. It's implication is that some do.
My post was in reference to bold's post directly before mine. I'm fairly sure you knew this, but are just into targeting my posts lately. Enjoy... if doing so brings you joy in these times, I'm glad to oblige.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Chuck Naill]

New strategy, blame Meadows
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...ce/ar-AA10IBUe

From Heather Cox Richardson's blog today.
"Trump has continued to throw out more excuses for his theft of classified documents, recently suggesting his former chief of staff Mark Meadows is at fault for failing to organize a system to send documents to the National Archives and Records Administration and then suggesting that he had withheld the documents because he didn’t trust the “partisan Democrat appointees” who were “releasing thousands of his White House documents to the January 6 Committee in spite of his lawyers’ claims of executive privilege.”

Maggie Haberman at the New York Times broke the news today that Trump’s White House counsel and deputy White House counsel, Pat A. Cipollone and Patrick F. Philbin, have talked to the FBI in the last few months about the stolen documents. According to two witnesses, when Philbin tried to get him to return documents to the National Archives and Records Administration, Trump said, “It’s not theirs, it’s mine.”

[Bold2013]

Another limp platitude.

I don't recall having any beliefs concerning Trump when I was young.

I was brought up, by right-wing nut father, member of the John Birch Society, as a raving little conservative.

So— some of us are capable, given experience, and sufficient evidence, of changing our views.

Agreed