Desantis

[TSherbs]

DeSantis has led a campaign in his state to have all different kinds of books removed from school libraries. Parents and townspeople have jumped on the banning bandwagon. Sexual topics aren't the only books being challenged and removed. As your focus choice Ron DeSantis memorably said, "Florida is where woke comes to die." It's all one big topic, Chuck, and the issue has popped up in many states. You have focused only on drag performers, but the effort to control books (and course materials and teachers) is much larger than just that. DeSantis has said so himself. It's why he installed his own president and board of directors at that formerly liberal public college.

Parents have every right to protest, and they don't have to get your approval. Just because they exercise their prerogatives, they don't deserve the type posts you have levied.

Which "type of posts" are you talking about?

Have you made book removal requests yourself?

I've never asked a book to be banned. I think all books should be in the public library in book and not electronic form as much as is possible. I have made two recommendations for which my library ordered. How can adults be properly self-educated if the resources are not available. I do not think unrestricted access to all books should be available to children and age-appropriate restrictions elsewhere. James Baldwin's "If Beale Street Could Talk" is a book I tried to read, but lost interest over the gratuitous crudity. Now, you might read it and think nothing at all. As an adult we can read and decide what works. A child cannot and the parents must make that decision for them.

I certainly don't question a legal right to challenge a book. That's not the issue here. The issue here is the range of kinds of books being challenged (and removed) and the range of ages for which books have been removed. Some of the books make some sense to me, many do not, even the ones removed from elementary school. I have seen and read (my wife teaches them) some of the books on race and gender identity that have been successfully banned. IMO, the ban requests were made in ignorance, and yielding to the requests was an error and disservice to the children. Not all parent or community (one does not have to be a parent to file a request) requests are legitimate or wise or good for the children. Sometimes parents don't know best when it comes to teaching (as is true in other professions). Parents have the right to make all sorts of requests. Unfortunately, more and more book removal requests are being made (see Lady Onogaro's post for more on that) and some politicians are trying to make hay from the conflict.

[TSherbs]

This isn't Florida, but this is what we critics are getting at: this mania for trying to make decisions for teachers is getting excessive, irrational, uninformed, and out of control. This is from Arizona, where we have another poorly written extreme law moving through the system:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opin...d/70035235007/

[dneal]

I certainly don't question a legal right to challenge a book. That's not the issue here. The issue here is the range of kinds of books being challenged (and removed) and the range of ages for which books have been removed. Some of the books make some sense to me, many do not, even the ones removed from elementary school. I have seen and read (my wife teaches them) some of the books on race and gender identity that have been successfully banned. IMO, the ban requests were made in ignorance, and yielding to the requests was an error and disservice to the children. Not all parent or community (one does not have to be a parent to file a request) requests are legitimate or wise or good for the children.

These are books with imagery instructing in the manipulation of genitalia, for pleasure. Full stop. Shloop!

These are for children? Parent or community standards in this case aren't legitimate or wise or good for the children?

If it were photographs rather than illustrations, it would be porn.

Porn does not belong on library shelves, particularly where children can get at it. It belongs on the high shelf behind the modesty board in the newsstand. You're supposed to have your buddy's older brother get a copy, with the money you saved up in bottle deposits.

[Chip]

Most of the innocent kids you claim to protect by trashing libraries are getting their sex education by watching hardcore porn on their dad's computer or their own phones.

Reality bites!

[dneal]

Most of the innocent kids you claim to protect by trashing libraries are getting their sex education by watching hardcore porn on their dad's computer or their own phones.

Reality bites!

So we mark you down as pro-Shloop then?

[TSherbs]

Here is more evidence of the broader politicization of this tension over schools, courses, books, bathrooms, pronouns, parents' rights...you name it:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/educati...t-over-schools

[TSherbs]

I'll say again: I'm not sure that this is a winning strategy, nationally. It fires up a base, but that's not where national elections are won and lost.

[Chuck Naill]

I just listened to Brooks and Capehart on PBS. Brooks said when Covid kept learning at home, parents became aware or more aware of what their children were being taught. Neither disagreed that parents do not have a right to protest. Capehart asked what happened to the PTA. Brooks commented that parents and teacher need to be able to partner and work together.

Capehart commented on how families with trans children in banned states are trapped by laws that prevent them from gender affirming healthcare and makes is illegal to seek treatment outside of their state. These people are trapped.

Brooks commented that American race education needs to be in the curriculum.

That these parents and teachers are being politicized, and groups are using them for their own interests is deplorable.

[Chuck Naill]

Most of the innocent kids you claim to protect by trashing libraries are getting their sex education by watching hardcore porn on their dad's computer or their own phones.

Reality bites!

So we mark you down as pro-Shloop then?

How would he possibly know? Has he seen thousands of children watching porn on their father's phones? If so, did he complain or support the practice?

The learned member had said before he didn't have children, but he then said homeschooling is where parents can control their children's education. Is that a bad thing? Apparently for the member it is. If the member had a young child that he was responsible for, would be degrade "innocence". Does he watch porn on his phone? It is hard to take a person seriously who lives in social isolation complain about homeschooling.

No one wants to answer your question, why would a drag actor want to perform or even be willing to perform in front of a child?

Why would a library not restrict certain books.

[Chuck Naill]

I'll say again: I'm not sure that this is a winning strategy, nationally. It fires up a base, but that's not where national elections are won and lost.

Since you are a retired teacher, if a parent came to you with concerns, what would you attitude toward them be. Would you be respectful of their concerns? Would you pretend to be respectful while inside resenting them questioning you?

I have encountered teachers and principals who resented being questioned. If a school does not allow a cooperation between parents and their teachers, not much is accomplished. I feel for the schools and families where their environment has become politicized.

[TSherbs]

Since you are a retired teacher, if a parent came to you with concerns, what would you attitude toward them be. Would you be respectful of their concerns? Would you pretend to be respectful while inside resenting them questioning you?

This happened several times. Never was I resentful or disrespectful. Always the parent deferred to my final decision. Only once did I exempt a student from a book (and assigned her a different one). Never did I cancel a book for an entire class because of a parent objection. In every case but one, when I explained the purpose of the selection and my manner of teaching it, they said, "Oh, OK."

Until in my last year my employer said no more Huck Finn. So we all dropped it. I did have some resentment over that, but I complied.

When you open the floodgates to citizen removal requests via internet database, you get the politicized mess we are in now: a kind of frenzy of uninformed challenges.

[Chuck Naill]

Since you are a retired teacher, if a parent came to you with concerns, what would you attitude toward them be. Would you be respectful of their concerns? Would you pretend to be respectful while inside resenting them questioning you?

This happened several times. Never was I resentful or disrespectful. Always the parent deferred to my final decision. Only once did I exempt a student from a book (and assigned her a different one). Never did I cancel a book for an entire class because of a parent objection. In every case but one, when I explained the purpose of the selection and my manner of teaching it, they said, "Oh, OK."

Until in my last year my employer said no more Huck Finn. So we all dropped it. I did have some resentment over that, but I complied.

When you open the floodgates to citizen removal requests via internet database, you get the politicized mess we are in now: a kind of frenzy of uninformed challenges.

Can you name the book the parent objected to?

i see Huck Finn as instructive of the acceptance of systemic racism. How do you see the book's value?

I agree with your last sentence.

The pandemic revealed to parents many things when their children were being schooled at home. I have read that they saw the ADHD the teachers had been seeing, but parents didn't know. Apparently, ADHD medications are in short supply now.

Also, I can imaging a parent saying, "you're reading what"!!

[TSherbs]

Since you are a retired teacher, if a parent came to you with concerns, what would you attitude toward them be. Would you be respectful of their concerns? Would you pretend to be respectful while inside resenting them questioning you?

This happened several times. Never was I resentful or disrespectful. Always the parent deferred to my final decision. Only once did I exempt a student from a book (and assigned her a different one). Never did I cancel a book for an entire class because of a parent objection. In every case but one, when I explained the purpose of the selection and my manner of teaching it, they said, "Oh, OK."

Until in my last year my employer said no more Huck Finn. So we all dropped it. I did have some resentment over that, but I complied.

When you open the floodgates to citizen removal requests via internet database, you get the politicized mess we are in now: a kind of frenzy of uninformed challenges.

Can you name the book the parent objected to?

i see Huck Finn as instructive of the acceptance of systemic racism. How do you see the book's value?

I agree with your last sentence.

The pandemic revealed to parents many things when their children were being schooled at home. I have read that they saw the ADHD the teachers had been seeing, but parents didn't know. Apparently, ADHD medications are in short supply now.

Also, I can imaging a parent saying, "you're reading what"!!

The book was The Bluest Eye, by Toni Morrison

The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is one of the cornerstone works of American literature. Hemingway said this: “All modern American literature comes from one book by Mark Twain called Huckleberry Finn. American writing comes from that. There was nothing before. There has been nothing as good since.” I can write an essay about all that studying this book reveals in terms of theme, structure, plot, irony, and the problem of race in America....but I won't. Others have written entire books about it (PhD theses, too). But the book also contains the n-word used over 200 times. That is hard to take, and my students complained (white students and students of color). It finally had to go.

[dneal]

I'll say again: I'm not sure that this is a winning strategy, nationally. It fires up a base, but that's not where national elections are won and lost.

Google “Libs of TikTok”, or “Chaya Raichik”.

A Jewish mother prompted national outrage for reposting crazy blue haired people. One identified as a hawk. Yes, the bird. Many are of blue haired teachers clarifying pronouns and whatnot.

The percentage represented is arguable, but irrelevant to the outrage it creates. You aren’t paying attention to what the other side is actually saying and doing, and the narrative your media serves up misrepresents at best or omits at worst.

Florida is not an isolated case. It’s already a national winning strategy that gathered more momentum this past midterm.

[dneal]

To get back on topic, here's an hour long interview Piers Morgan did with Ron De Santis a day or two ago.

A bombastic liberal, he's not afraid of conflict; and is ideologically opposed to De Santis in the general sense.

Listen to it straight from the horse's mouth, or have your daily interpretation written by a twenty-something journalism major making minimum wage at the ministries of truth.

[Chip]

The notion that a knuckle-dragging religious fanatic white supremacist parent should have the power to overrule a qualified teacher is at the core of this so-called crusade. Wonder what the response would be if a liberal parent objected to the biased Christian content of a class or a glorified account of US military action?

(Note to dneal: this is an op-ed.)

In Florida, parents are always right – even when they think a Michelangelo is porn

Arwa Mahdawi
25 Mar 2023

Welcome to Florida, where Michelangelo is woke.

Ah, the Renaissance. A period that saw the growth of intellectual reason, the flowering of art and culture, and a lot of very hardcore pornography.

Such is the opinion of aggrieved parents of kids at Tallahassee classical school in Florida, anyway. Their sixth-graders (who are aged around 11-12) were shown a picture of Michelangelo’s sculpture of David during a Renaissance art class. Fairly normal, one might think – particularly for a school that advertises itself as providing a classical education. Nope: a firing offence. One parent called the sculpture “pornographic” and so much outrage ensued that the principal of the school, Hope Carrasquilla, was forced out.

This may seem completely bonkers to many of us but, Carrasquilla, the former principal, told the Huffington Post that she wasn’t entirely surprised by the reaction. Every “once in a while you get a parent who gets upset about Renaissance art”. Indeed, normally, a letter is sent out to parents of students warning them that their kiddos are going to see a picture of one of the world’s most famous sculptures. (I believe this is known as a “trigger warning”, something I thought the right were vehemently against.) This year, however, due to a “series of miscommunications”, the letter wasn’t sent out, exacerbating parental anger.

According to Slate, who interviewed Barney Bishop III, the school board chair responsible for forcing Carrasquilla out of her job, three parents were behind the bulk of the David-related outrage. Three parents. Three! But the number of angry parents doesn’t matter, because, according to Bishop, parents are always right. “Parental rights are supreme, and that means protecting the interests of all parents, whether it’s one, 10, 20 or 50,” Bishop said to the Tallahassee Democrat.

Bishop, by the way, denies that Carrasquilla was solely forced out because she showed the kids Michelangelo’s David. He wasn’t able to fully explain why she was forced out, however, but in his interview with Slate he reiterated his idea that the parents are always right. “The rights of parents, that trumps the rights of kids,” he told Slate. “Teachers are the experts? Teachers have all the knowledge? Are you kidding me? I know lots of teachers that are very good, but to suggest they are the authorities, you’re on better drugs than me.” Which raises the question: what kind of drugs is Bishop on?

This David-related drama might be mildly amusing if it were restricted to one dysfunctional school. Alas, it’s just the latest example of a terrifying lurch towards censorship and authoritarianism in Florida. Governor Ron DeSantis, who has been described as the “Education Governor” is on a censorship crusade and his first major battleground has been schools. DeSantis wants to completely reshape K-12 and higher education in the state and, so far, he’s been getting his way. Florida’s Republican-dominated legislature has already passed a number of laws limiting how gender, sexuality and race can be taught. Now the state is trying to limit sex education with a draft law that would ban schools teaching about menstrual cycles before the sixth grade. Give it a few years and showing a child a picture of Michelangelo’s David will be a criminal offence, punishable by firing squad.

I’m only half-joking about that last bit. Because DeSantis isn’t as erratic as Donald Trump, because he’s well spoken and went to Yale and Harvard, I think there has been a tendency in some quarters to minimize the dangers he poses, to think he’s not as scary as Trump. Think this at your peril. DeSantis shouldn’t be compared to Trump – he should be compared to Hungary’s far-right leader, Viktor Orbán, who is much beloved by US conservatives. Orbán has put an authoritarian playbook in place that DeSantis appears to be following: it’s widely thought, for example, that Florida’s “don’t say gay” law was modeled on Hungary’s anti-LGBTQ+ laws. “If you want to see where this leads, Hungary has a lot to teach us,” the New York Times columnist Michelle Goldberg wrote in a recent piece. Those lessons are not pleasant.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e_iOSApp_Other

[dneal]

Thank you Chip for correctly identifying your propaganda as an op-ed. Hopefully the pedant in your soul is content.

So are you ok with children having the books I posted images of earlier? I don’t think you really answered that.

[TSherbs]

I checked out that board director's list of past work on the school website.

He makes a lot of pronouncements about teachers and education, etc, for someone who has had very little to do with it, and no training or degree or certification. Fits right in with the tenor of the times. Yeah, he's the boss (mostly). But, honestly, he don't know shit about learning or teaching. But, of course, that's not why he's there. Wonder how long the next principal will last (the fourth since 2020).

For comedy, I did love the drugs comment

[724Seney]

The notion that a knuckle-dragging religious fanatic white supremacist parent should have the power to overrule a qualified teacher is at the core of this so-called crusade.

Got it.
Knuckle-dragging religious fanatic white supremacist parents are bad
Closed minded, reclusive, far left, woke Marxists who spit on the doorknobs of those with whom they do not share similar political ideologies are good.
Thanks for explaining.

[TSherbs]

Here's an opinion piece from the NY Post from the other side on the federal "parental rights" act:

https://nypost.com/2023/03/24/dems-s...heir-own-kids/