Desantis

[Chip]

DeSantis ally is going to jail.

Florida's 'Don't Say Gay' bill author facing up to 35 years in prison

Joe Harding, the now-former Florida Republican lawmaker who authored the extremist "Don't Say Gay" bill could face up to 35 years in prison after pleading guilty Tuesday afternoon to federal felony fraud charges in a scheme to obtain $150,000 in COVID-19 relief funds, according to Florida Politics‘ publisher Peter Scorsch.

Harding, 35, was a construction project manager who started his own lawn care company. He quickly became a right-wing darling after his anti-LGBTQ legislation, officially the Parental Rights in Education Act, was embraced by Florida GOP Governor Ron DeSantis, who signed it into law.

Harding was charged in a December federal indictment with six counts of wire fraud, money laundering, and making false statements in his plot to obtain $150,000 in COVID funds. He resigned from the legislature the following day. He originally pled not guilty.

After Harding was charged and resigned, Nadine Smith, the executive director of Equality Florida, responded via social media, saying: "So much harm to students, parents and teachers because of his raw political ambitions. He slandered entire communities and trafficked in lie after lie that has emboldened violent bigotry. He will have his day in court but his legacy is already a despicable one."

Harding is not the only family member accused of criminal acts.

"Harding's indictment follows a September guilty plea from his brother-in-law, Patrick Walsh," Florida Politics reported in December. "As reported by Fresh Take Florida, Walsh pleaded guilty to wire fraud and money laundering charges connected to his receipt of nearly $8 million in disaster relief loans."

Unrepentant to the harm many feel he has done to children and the LGBTQ community, in a statement Tuesday Harding said: "During the past legislative session I have felt the support of millions of Americans while fighting for our shared concerns and for the rights of parents. I will never forget the support I received from every corner of this great country."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fl...037637ea&ei=19

This story is also covered elsewhere:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/21/polit...aud/index.html

https://www.tampabay.com/news/florid...igned-charges/

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndfl/pr...d-making-false

https://www.cbsnews.com/miami/news/d...elief-fraud-2/

Even Fox News covered it:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/for...5-years-prison

[TSherbs]

Careful of the company you keep.

[dneal]

My judgement of DeSantis proceeds from his actions as governor and what he has been quoted as saying in the news.

I know, and already said as much.

The levels of partisanship are: crazy-Karen on Twitter, spitting a series of click-bait headlines they memorized because it was repeated to them 24/7 as a mantra.

…a litany of hit-piece op-eds that declare similar positions - all with the same problem: literal ignorance of the person in question. Partisan politics, or "personality politics", has become little more than school children bickering over who is the bigger doo-doo head.

“The news” is a little disingenuous. One side of it says he says that, certainly.

But none of you ever check to see if they’re telling you the truth - which is why DeSantis dispells the myths in his news conferences. Presented with evidence to the contrary, the chip-screaming and flurry of op-eds follows.

What was banned is presented. Why it was banned is evident.

You post the typical guilt by association article, as if it establishes some salient point “Florida’s ‘Don’t Say Gay’ bill author facing up to 35 years in prison” has what exactly to do with what the State of Florida passed as law?

[TSherbs]

Jail sounds right.

[Chip]

It was a news item, not an op-ed (do you know the difference?)

Never looked at Twitter. Nor at Fox News, InfoWars, Reddit, 4chan, MarcoPolo, Daily Stormer, or any of the other loony sources you consult.

So your attempted insults don't mean much to me, Mister Short Fuse.

[dneal]

It was a news item, not an op-ed (do you know the difference?)

Yes. You on the other hand apparently do not see the editorializing.

So again, what does DeSantis and the “Don’t Say Gay” law have to do with the lawmaker and fraud charges?

[TSherbs]

@Chuck This is what I meant when I said that it is too late to hope that library collections would not become politicized:

AP article on record number (in last 20 years) of removal requests in 2022 for books in libraries:

https://apnews.com/article/book-bans...54931bc1a5e054

[Chuck Naill]

Thank you for posting @Ted. Some of the banning also came from Liberal parents over racially explicit language from Mark Twain, but most seems to be about black history and sexual novels. That the great Roberto Clemente's biography was banned, was a surprise. What a wonderful example of a person who died serving others.

As we have discussed, and continue to disagree, restrictions based on age appropriateness is a concern for me. I see education as a cooperation between the educational provider and the parent. Unless the family needs a visit by Child Protective Services, parents should decide what their child sees, reads, and experiences probably until they show a level of maturity. For me a HS student is not ready for a drag performance where an actor is lifting their skirt to show their panties. And, I sure don't want to see such a performance.

For me, my job as a parent and now a grandparent is to err on the side of caution and wisdom. When I have a conversation with my 12 year old grand children I love their innocence. I want nothing to do with tripping them up. I've seen the results of parenting that didn't provide guard rails. It looks cool until the child is abused or becomes a drug addict because the parents were not protecting.

And back in the '60's Catcher in the Rye was banned. Three people who read it shot someone.

[dneal]

Yes, this is just like when liberals wanted to ban Mark Twain, because a 19th century author had the audacity to use "the 'N' word".

Florida state law lists no book explicitly - and merely states that explicit books are not appropriate.

So let's look at the books.

CAUTION FOR THE BIGOTS THAT HATE EDUCATING CHILDREN: "CHILD-APPROPRIATE" LIBRARY BOOKS FOLLOW...

Here's one with poetry. Yes, those evil Maga-DeSantians hate poetry, apparently.

Just Poetry - 1.jpeg
Just Poetry - 2.jpeg
Just Poetry - 3.jpeg

Well, a little risqué, you might say; but surely this isn't enough to get all these RWW's riled up.

So let's continue.

Gender Queer - 1.jpeg

Gender Queer - 2.jpeg


Oh, that's just a little fellatio and some breast removal. No biggie, right TSherbs?

Let's keep going.


Let's Talk About It - 1.jpegAttachment 76450
Let's Talk About It - 3.jpegLet's Talk About It - 4.jpeg
Let's Talk About It - 5.jpegLet's Talk About It - 6.jpeg

[TSherbs]

I was thinking about the Christian desire to keep knowledge from other people, and I remembered the story of the Garden of Eden. In this tale, God's first rule is to keep Adam and Eve from knowing all that they can about themselves and the world, all that is true (the two complete halves of existence, the "good" and the "evil"). God's second question (after he asks, "Where are you?) is "“Who told you that you were naked?” The first relevant question God asks in his encounter of an independent (and now "mature" Adam and Eve), is "Who helped you learn this information?" for surely in their more child-like state of innocence and obedience (which does not last long), they would not have trangressed the information boundaries on their own. Well, Adam and Eve learned a lot in that moment (totallity), had their eyes opened to their "naked" status, then became "ashamed" and in need over covering their reproductive and sexual humanness. And they were punished with blood, sweat, work, enmity, and death.

No wonder that Christians so often fear the dissemination of knowledge about gender, sexuality, reproduction, etc. They then constructed a sex-less mother of Jesus, a sex-less Jesus himself, and a continuing pattern of distrusting knowledge (truth) and its maturing effects on humanity. All Adam and Eve did in that story was grow up out of that infantile state of ignorant dependency in the day-care of God (God, by the way, would be sued by the parents of Adam and Eve: he sets them loose in the backyard with a fork-tongued serpent predator roaming the play structures).

Could this by why the Bible-Belt states (and these are predominantly Protestant) lead the country in consumption of pornography? That Bible-induced shame and repression then being expressed in neurotic, self-destructive, and closeted ways?

Catcher in the Rye was banned long before John Hinckley had it in his back pocket. I'm not sure what you are trying to do with that sentence. If we should ban books that have encouraged people to kill other humans, we should likely start with the Christian "Bible", no? Should we list all the moral crimes committed in the Bible? The rape, the murder, the adultery, the genocide, the slaughter of children? (that's just off the top of my head--likely there are many more).

[Chip]

So again, what does DeSantis and the “Don’t Say Gay” law have to do with the lawmaker and fraud charges?

"Joe Harding, the now-former Florida Republican lawmaker who authored the extremist "Don't Say Gay" bill could face up to 35 years in prison after pleading guilty Tuesday afternoon to federal felony fraud charges in a scheme to obtain $150,000 in COVID-19 relief funds, according to Florida Politics‘ publisher Peter Scorsch.

[dneal]

So guilt by association, which I pointed out earlier. Thanks for playing.

[TSherbs]

Interestingly, Romeo and Juliet has been banned fairly frequently, usually because it is charged with having "romanticized" suicide (I understand that worry). I can't recall that there has ever been widespread objection to the fact that Juliet runs away, marries, and has sex as a 13-yr-old (but maybe this was also stated as a reason). When I taught R&J I had the responsibility to address these concerns directly in class to the students (9th graders) and help them NOT read the tale as only a romanticized story of lovers who can't live without each other. That is actually a misreading of the play, and this is quite easy to demonstrate. It is much sadder and more tragic and full of mistakes if it is read properly. Shakespeare is criticizing their youthful impulsiveness and showing what harm it can lead to.

I also read that 1984 is one of the most banned books. How ironic, no?

I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings is also on the frequently banned lists because of the unsparing details of the rape scene. I have taught this book also to 9th grade, and I had trouble managing all the possible triggers and trauma from that scene, to the point that I stopped teaching it. But I would never suggest that the book not be permitted to be read by a teenager if they so wished. My decision not to teach it is not an equivalent to my trying to prevent ALL teens at a school (or town library) from being able to read it if they so choose.

[dneal]

Chuck, apparently you'll have to quote my post above - so TSherbs can't keep pretending he hasn't looked at it.

Romeo and Juliet is just like butt-plug instructions, it seems.

[TSherbs]

What's basically happened in this entire increase of banned book requests is two-fold:

1) Some publishers have been expanding the boundaries of what they consider acceptable material for students, at many ages, to read. Their emphasis has, in the main, been that the potential pain of ignorance on some topics is worse than the potential pain of the knowledge.

2) Communinities have felt more emboldened to identify reading lists (even just books on library shelves that no one is ever required to read) as battle ground for these larger scale culture wars that they fear that they might be losing. Many times the adults making review requests actually do not know what is in the books, or misunderstand how to read the books in a productive manner. Fear and anxiety lead to entrenchment, and then the local rules allow for more citizen control....and then you get record ban requests.

[TSherbs]

And, as Chuck pointed out, the ban requests are not all "conservative" in nature. There are "liberal" requests being made in the same manner (not as many, however, according to the reports). I was effectively told at my school that I could not teach Huck Finn any more. I complied.

[dneal]

TSherbs is always so cute when he posts repeatedly in an attempt to deflect from his losing position.

Just a reminder, this is a DeSantis thread, not a general "books are bad" thread. DeSantis and Florida didn't ban 1984.

Now about that cunnilingus poetry for children...

[dneal]

Normal people would immediately object to the images posted (and perhaps even my posting of them). They're shocking, outrageous, and there's no question of why media cut their broadcasts.

Normal people would agree that is not appropriate for school-aged children.

Instead we see outright denial of reality. Nope, doesn't exist.

Even when it's staring you right in the face.

Let's wander off to some diatribe of false-eqivalencies and biased recounting of history instead.

And you wonder why discussion isn't possible here.

[Lady Onogaro]

Our public libraries in Lafayette have been under attack for years, and we are going through this culture war right now.

Louisiana, as you may know, is one of the poorest states in the nation. It consistently is at the bottom in terms of high-school graduation rates, college educated populace rates, etc. We have the highest maternal mortality rates. We are among the states with the highest rates of cancer (Cancer Alley), the highest poverty rate, the worst schools, etc. We give away an outrageous amount of tax incentives to the motion picture industry, the petrochemical industry, the oil production industry, etc. to provide jobs. Our roads are probably the worst in the country.

The one thing Lafayette has is a good library system. Or rather, it has it until it is torn apart by the culture wars.

Like many libraries, we have copies of the books that dneal mentions. We have had them for years. Out of several hundred thousand books, some members of our community have taken issue with 7 or 8 books we have that are NOT IN THE CHILDREN'S SECTION and NEVER HAVE BEEN IN THE CHILDREN'S SECTION. The guide to sex was in the teen non-fiction section. The other graphic novels were in the adult graphic novels section (two floors above the children's section). The books by Rupi Kaur were in the Poetry section (still not children's section). It wasn't until Moms for Liberty and some other groups began their campaigns that one man, Michael Lunsford, head of Citizens for a New Louisiana (an anti-tax, anti-culture group funded by a number of local property developers who object to taxes generally and feel we do not need libraries because everyone has a cell phone) checked to see if the library had the books, and once he found we did, he began making the public aware and joining the campaign to PROTECT THE INNOCENCE OF CHILDREN!!

The books, some of which have been in the library for a few years and one or two that were about to be weeded because no one had ever checked them out, were suddenly big news, and the librarians were accused of being pedophiles and groomers and even worse, a group of gay-friendly adults who were trying to indoctrinate their children. /s

It has been horrible and sad since then. We have had so many librarians quit because they have been harassed, bullied, demonized, and everything else that they don't even want to be librarians anymore. So this state, which has a critical teacher shortage because a few years ago they were harassed, bullied, demonized, accused of being pedophiles grooming people's children stopped going into education because who wants the hassle?

The librarians, in an effort to appease those who object to those offense books that NO ONE READS (well, I will admit to having read Allison Bechdel's moving graphic novel Fun Home, which, as I said was shelved in the adult graphic novels section two floors above the Children's section), the teen non-fiction section has been dismantled and the books there moved into the regular non-fiction section THREE FLOORS ABOVE THE CHILDREN'S SECTION. There is a children's poetry section and a regular poetry section, and Rupi Kaur's books are in the regular poetry section, which is three floors above the Children's section.

And yet it is not enough. And I don't think it ever will be enough. They want a committee of citizens to go through the hundreds of thousands of books between our 9 libraries and find all the ones that mention or have sex in them and code them so that a child will be protected. Of course, this group of citizens would reflect "community standards," but not a community that includes gay people, by the way. God knows, Lafayette has no gay people. /s

The Director, last year, did away with any displays for Black History month (because people objected to Isabel Wilkerson's books, James Baldwin's books, Martin Luther King's books, etc.), Women's History month (because, well, what about men's history?), Pride Month (goes without saying), and any other day. So we had no Christmas book displays, Fourth of July displays, or any other displays because, the library director said, "I'm just trying to keep books on shelves." And the Library Board, which consists of people expressly chosen because they are Christian and anti-LGBTQ, even changed the rules for book challenges so that they would win all of them. (Librarians get one vote; they get three.)

Meanwhile, Louisianians are still under-educated, impoverished, etc. and young people are leaving the state for northern climes because who the hell wants to live here? There are no jobs that pay enough that young families can afford a house or an apartment. The public schools are crap. The private schools are crap, too, but hey, white people get to pay a lot for them so their kids don't have to go to school with African-American kids.

This whole book thing is a manufactured "crisis" to divert attention from the fact that we have some serious problems in this country. Five or six books are not the problem. If parents don't want kids reading them, go to the damn library with them and see that they don't get them. But I don't think you are going to find eight year olds looking for these books. It's that adults who are looking for them.

Learning about African-American history is not a problem. Drag Queens are not the problem (heck, Mrs. Doubtfire, Uncle Miltie, Some Like It Hot, and all the cross-dressing Shakespeare plays are not the problem).

School aged children are not being exposed to Allison Bechdel's Fun Home or Gender Queer. And if they were, I really don't think it would hurt them. Parents could, like, talk to them about the books. But I know, talking about sex with their children is hard. That's why we have so many unwanted pregnancies. Better to not know how to use a condom or birth control.

Nothing in those books are worse than what children are seeing on the phones that their parents give them as babysitters. And if they can't find those images on their phones, they have friends who do.

See behind the curtain, please. The issues are that children go to bed hungry every night. Their schools are falling down around their ears. They are being shot to death on their front porches because we have ennobled the gun so much that everyone has to have one even if they don't know how to use one.

Truly, it's insanity.

Now they want cards that will prevent children from checking out adult books. Children are classified as anyone between the ages of 0 and 18. I'm sorry, but a 17 year old is not the same as a 4 year old and should have different privileges, I would think.

So far they have not gone as far as Oklahoma and demanded that any book that has sex in it be removed from the library, but I am expecting it from our wacky Attorney General who apparently is gay-phobic because his own brother is gay.

[TSherbs]

@Lady Onogaro Thanks for taking all the time to write and post this. I am sorry that you have had to go through this, all of it. For you personally, and for your community (and state). I live in Maine, in a very liberal county, and even our library collection has been targeted a few times. Just a few miles away, the librarians are being harassed more directly, as are the teachers (I posted about this already). It is truly sad. Librarians have been such great champions of truth and knowledge and children and the freedom to learn and opportunities for learning for the less-privileged. To hear that you have had to remove all those displays to avoid the censoring condemnation of a rabble crowd is heartbreaking (I taught literature, when I was working). The idea of wanting to ban James Baldwin is heartbreaking to me! I saw that The Color Purple was also at the top of some banned book lists. God forbid, lesbian love and a woman-centered business model! A 15-yr-old just isn't ready to read about such things! <eye-roll>

Will we ever heal from this is a whole other question.