John the Baptist or Baptizer

[Chuck Naill]

It seems appropriate to mention the prophet. He got things wrong, but is still loved. His disciples came to Jesus after he was beheaded to ask, “are you the one or should we look for another “. Jesus responded, “ the blind see, the lame walk, and the poor have the good news spoken to them”.

He was a first cousin of Jesus, born nine months before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Baptist

[Chip]

[Chuck Naill]

No relation, Chip!!

[BoBo Olson]

Only two of John's followers went over to Joshua bar Mary, after John was murdered.
Both were Essians..........a sect that followed the teaching of the Great Rabbi, whose name is not known. He was the High Priest some 100 years before the two J's, who gave up or was removed from the high priest hood, and went off to start his own sect.
Like the Jehovah Witnesses who went up some mountain in America to see the end of the world in the 1880's..........the end of the world that John and Joshua preached didn't happen on time.

So the Essians went back and re-figured. Some 40 years later they were right......Masada happened and the Jews got kicked out of the homeland and that was an end of the world........no more temple.
(Actually there were very many Jews already out of the homeland...in Alexandria and very many in Carthage. Rome....where the first Christians were Jews.
At first all Christians were Jews, in one had to convert to Judiasm to become a christian. Learn Hebrew, get snipped if a man............until Peter/Paul said, nope, didn't have to get snipped, nor learn the Talmud, just believe and pay into the collection plate.

After that the first Christians met at the houses of the rich widow women, for orgies.

The Romans had an 8 day week, so becoming a Christian was a shorter work week.
But the most important thing was the women didn't have to walk in the underground sewers to place their living babies on the dead baby pile, as was Roman custom. Birth control before abortion.

After the First Council of Nicaea 325 AD Josh got voted God; like Hercules, was once voted god.
It got expensive in a hurry....the priests needed silk and gold ornaments and not sweat in the fields. Those priest and bishops who didn't think he was a money making god where not allowed inside to vote.

They then burnt the over 120 Testaments that said he was a man....keeping only Josh's guilt driven brother John and three late comers who never seen him; knowing him only from hearsay.
In one can't be a Rabi with out being married, Mary Magdinine was his wife...he did have two sons. Her testament was burned as was Peter's who said as god, Josh didn't feel any pain on the cross....so was not good for the pocketbook and what he had to say was burned.

[TSherbs]

It seems appropriate to mention the prophet. He got things wrong, but is still loved. His disciples came to Jesus after he was beheaded to ask, “are you the one or should we look for another “. Jesus responded, “ the blind see, the lame walk, and the poor have the good news spoken to them”.

He was a first cousin of Jesus, born nine months before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Baptist

There is a lot of these stories that I do not trust as true (ever happened). You seem to take them for literally true. Do you? When you say that John "got things wrong," I don't know how to respond because I am not sure that a "John" ever said any of these things to get something "wrong." We have a story, written much later, that depicts a "John" saying and doing things. I can discuss the character of John, but I can't engage in a discussion about an actual John until I am convinced that he was real and that we know anything about him that is not seriously suspected of being a fabrication to establish the divinity of the later Jesus.

[Chuck Naill]

It seems appropriate to mention the prophet. He got things wrong, but is still loved. His disciples came to Jesus after he was beheaded to ask, “are you the one or should we look for another “. Jesus responded, “ the blind see, the lame walk, and the poor have the good news spoken to them”.

He was a first cousin of Jesus, born nine months before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Baptist

There is a lot of these stories that I do not trust as true (ever happened). You seem to take them for literally true. Do you? When you say that John "got things wrong," I don't know how to respond because I am not sure that a "John" ever said any of these things to get something "wrong." We have a story, written much later, that depicts a "John" saying and doing things. I can discuss the character of John, but I can't engage in a discussion about an actual John until I am convinced that he was real and that we know anything about him that is not seriously suspected of being a fabrication to establish the divinity of the later Jesus.

I cannot prove he did or didn't, but it is common to quote fiction or other ancient sources if the statement fits into our lives or applicable in some other way.

What he got wrong was thinking Jesus was going to liberate Israel, destroy Rome, and the religious oppression. For me the value of discussing him is to show that Jesus' purpose was not an Earthly rule. We can use his question also to show that the idea to make a country the Kingdom of God was never the intent. In the US, some think or might think their purpose is to usher in the Kingdom of God, to make Americans bend to their interpretations of religion.

Also, history shows that when religions and politics come together, it never works out well.

[TSherbs]

... For me the value of discussing him is to show that Jesus' purpose was not an Earthly rule. We can use his question also to show that the idea to make a country the Kingdom of God was never the intent.

Thanks. I think I see what you mean. But do you think that we know, with any certainty, what the words and intent of this man called Jesus were? Do you take the NT as a reliable record of the sayings and actions of this man called Jesus of Nazareth? Josephus's entry on Jesus (I own a copy of the book) is incredibly short. Do you accept the sayings and actions of the "apocrypha" as just as accurate as the accepted canon? I agree, that from the teachings and actions of the story of Jesus as we have them in the four major gospels, that this man (not divine) called Jesus (translated to English, whom I am quite certain did actually live and die) was not interested in reshaping the politics or government or laws of his day. He was interested in a reform from within the person. But for all I know, that is simply a purpose/theme that the later writers projected onto the actual unknowable sayings and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth (a Galilean peasant who could maybe read and write, but we aren't certain).

[Chuck Naill]

... For me the value of discussing him is to show that Jesus' purpose was not an Earthly rule. We can use his question also to show that the idea to make a country the Kingdom of God was never the intent.

Thanks. I think I see what you mean. But do you think that we know, with any certainty, what the words and intent of this man called Jesus were? Do you take the NT as a reliable record of the sayings and actions of this man called Jesus of Nazareth? Josephus's entry on Jesus (I own a copy of the book) is incredibly short. Do you accept the sayings and actions of the "apocrypha" as just as accurate as the accepted canon? I agree, that from the teachings and actions of the story of Jesus as we have them in the four major gospels, that this man (not divine) called Jesus (translated to English, whom I am quite certain did actually live and die) was not interested in reshaping the politics or government or laws of his day. He was interested in a reform from within the person. But for all I know, that is simply a purpose/theme that the later writers projected onto the actual unknowable sayings and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth (a Galilean peasant who could maybe read and write, but we aren't certain).

I do not know if they are his words, but I do know the concepts written are very good ways to live. If he didn't talk about the woman caught in adultery, the Good Samaritan, or the Golden Rule, someone did and I've always found them to be a profound yet simple way to live, and think. Loving your neighbor as yourself and treating them as you would want to be treated is a way to deal with all of our present issues. White people would want racial and gender justice, because they to would want the same. We wouldn't put formerly pregnant women in prison because they wouldn't want their wives and daughters to be treated that way.

If you've never heard of Dallas Willard, look him up. He taught philosophy at the University of Southern California. He said Jesus never expected us to do what he did, but to live as Jesus would if he were living our lives. He said the idea of asking "what would Jesus do" sounds good, but isn't. We were never called to be little Jesus'. He said using a Samaritan to make a moral lesson about what it means to be a neighbor would be like one of us using a homosexual today. It was radical for any writer in those times to not condemn a woman, or to talk to one in broad daylight at a watering hole.

Yes, Josephus had little to say, but I could also question whether there was a Jewish historian by that name. I can question Plato or Socrates for that matter, if they did actually exist as one person.

[TSherbs]

Yes, Josephus had little to say, but I could also question whether there was a Jewish historian by that name. I can question Plato or Socrates for that matter, if they did actually exist as one person.

I refered to Josephus only to make the point that we have very little in the way of corroborating evidence of an early Jesus movement outside of the writings of believers. Josephus is the first, but unfortunately he only writes a couple of sentences. I don't actually question the existence of this man Jesus. Nor do I question the existence of Plato or Socrates (these other persons have additional attestation). These writers, including the writers of the gospels, all had other people helping them (or writing in their name) with writing and later making all sorts of transcriptions. My point is about how we ascribe words and motives to anyone in antiquity.

But I agree: the Beatitudes, the parables are are amazing documents, as are some of the non-canonical texts. Truly astounding, and full of wisdom.

[TSherbs]

I once tried to trace back through history all the exigent texts of The Odyssey that we have. If I recall correctly, before about 1000CE, all we have is a small amount of fragments (there are a lot of other refences to the tales written by other persons for a thousand years, but I mean pieces of actual text still in existence today). And that is maybe 1700 years after the story(ies) first came to be.

Anyway, my point is only that the quest for original documents that provide insight is both intriguing and challenging.

[Chuck Naill]

The same is true for many ancient writers and thinkers. Plus the language challenges and translations.

I’m not disagreeing or arguing with your points at all.

I am sure accounts were misremembered. There have been attempts to make the four gospels agree, but obviously there are challenges.

Thomas Paine’s thorough knowledge of the Bible and his Age of Reason, while hated at the time, continues to have an impact today.

[BoBo Olson]

"""""What he got wrong was thinking Jesus was going to liberate Israel, destroy Rome, and the religious oppression.

Also, history shows that when religions and politics come together, it never works out well.[/QUOTE]

Peter was a hater; and only from him do we get Judas hung himself, and Mary was a whore.

Judas was the leader of the Maccabees revolt. He could bring two tallents of gold...2 Kilos. 4.4 pounds. So he had to take the fortune of 30 pieces of silver offered for ol'Josh's capture, or the Roman's would have strongly questioned him, to why he didn't take the money.
Josh knew what he was doing by entering through the almost unused Lion's gate.
He and his wife Mary who had a claim on the thrown of Israel and he on Judea. Judas's plan was to replace Harrold with Joshua and make him high priest at the same time. Make great 'Israel/Judea' again.

The folk were not impressed by a messiah who allowed himself to be beaten and whipped, so voted to free the bandit/revolutionary Barabbas instead of Joshua bar Mary.....son of Mary.
So much for Judas's Plan A.

John Ben Joseph, Josh's half brother who wrote one of the 4 testaments (was never at any of the gang meetings...bad case of guilt) was ben, son of.........Josh the bastard of a Roman Centenarian= bar...........and the House of David had fallen so low all they could afford to buy for Mary was a Carpenter who couldn't make it in the big city of Alexandria and slunk back home with his tail between his legs.
Otherwise she was to be stoned to death....as was common for the time.

There was also some sort of law that said a half Jew man (from his mother side or was it either way....***) couldn't marry a Jewish girl.....so Mary of Madelaine looking down from her temple tower, fell in love with a passing stranger Joshua bar Mary.

When asked by the church spy, are you the messiah or was that a prophet? Josh said quickly, "you said that, not I."
In 200 years before the Jews had passed a law...being tired of bald headed prophets coming out of the hills sicking bears on children who laughed at him; any one who said he was a prophet was to be stoned to death by his parents or all three of them were to be stoned to death.


*** Didn't study this history....and am a BAP.....just haven't decided which pagan faith to join. Happy hunting ground a must, with a AC bowling alley/poolhall, golf and free beer, is necessary.
Sitting in the clouds chirping praises to god, would be boring after an hour.....Hell would be less boring.
Actually being surrounded by fundamentalists would be hell.

Jehovah/Yahweh, the thunder &war god is the younger brother of Baal, and claiming to be the only god....surely don't respect his father El and his mother Asherah when in his commandments it so says.....except you shall have no god before me, not my big brother, nor my mom and dad.

Oh the other gods had important things to do so Yahweh was tasked with inventing the universe.....and was told not to screw it up this time like he did the first time he invented a universe.

You know the Jews don't have Satan?....He was a 4/5th century? Tunisia-Algeria Christian add on....2.1....................to explain the skidzoid god.
1.0 was back when JC was a philosopher. 2.0 ='s when he was voted god.

[TSherbs]

say what?

[Chuck Naill]

say what?

I think he is saying that those folks around Jesus had issues. Once you said that you had never met a real Jesus disciple, or something similar. There is most likely not one, nor is being one even the point or goal. If something happened and Donald Trump had a Damascus Road experience, Donald would still be Donald. He would try and fail just like we all do. He'd have to wake up every day and learn to think differently. He'd have to consider and try to love his neighbor like he loves himself. He'd have to work at not seeking revenge. He'd learn how to apologize. He might go underground for a while like the Apostle Paul.

[Chip]

Biblical conspiracy theories. Pretty cool!

John's severed head was a really popular subject for painters. An image search proved fairly gruesome.

[Chuck Naill]

Good point and it illustrates what we’ve been discussing relative to the wrong choices made by Evangelicals. They are the butt of disrespect and jokes.