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Thread: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

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    Senior Member dneal's Avatar
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    Default Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    The last two Presidential elections had the losing candidate accuse the other of cheating to win. Russians got Trump elected, Democrats cheated through mail-in fraud or electronic conspiracies... whatever.

    Election Day is just ramping up, and the claims of shenanigans are as well.

    Yesterday the DOJ sent notices to 24 States that they were going to observe polling places. Missouri and Florida (so far) told them no.

    This morning already, Maricopa county has tabulating machines not working

    Politico is warning of Russian hackers again, which Fox is relishing reporting on

    I don't know how we (the country) fix this. We're the richest, most powerful country in the history of the world; and we can't figure out a friggin' system. Maybe neither party wants to.

    /rant

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    One big difference is that evidence shows clear Russian interference in the 2016 election (so the accusations were justified), but that there has been zero evidence to show ballot-fraud in the 2020 election (so the accusations are unjustified).

    Neither political party is without flaw, what political party ever is. The rhetoric used by a lot of the more prominent Republicans shows that getting into power is far more important to them than fairness or even common decency.

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Here's the press release from the DOJ

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    Monday, November 7, 2022
    Justice Department to Monitor Polls in 24 States for Compliance with Federal Voting Rights Laws

    The Justice Department announced today its plans to monitor compliance with federal voting rights laws in 64 jurisdictions in 24 states for the Nov. 8, 2022 general election. Since the passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, the Civil Rights Division has regularly monitored elections in the field in jurisdictions around the country to protect the rights of voters. The Civil Rights Division will also take complaints from the public nationwide regarding possible violations of the federal voting rights laws through its call center. The Civil Rights Division enforces the federal voting rights laws that protect the rights of all citizens to access the ballot.

    For the general election, the Civil Rights Division will monitor for compliance with the federal voting rights laws on Election Day and/or in early voting in 64 jurisdictions:

    City of Bethel, Alaska;
    Dillingham Census Area, Alaska;
    Kusilvak Census Area, Alaska;
    Sitka City-Borough, Alaska;
    Maricopa County, Arizona;
    Navajo County, Arizona;
    Pima County, Arizona;
    Pinal County, Arizona;
    Yavapai County, Arizona;
    Newton County, Arkansas;
    Los Angeles County, California;
    Sonoma County, California;
    Broward County, Florida;
    Miami-Dade County, Florida;
    Palm Beach County, Florida;
    Cobb County, Georgia;
    Fulton County, Georgia;
    Gwinnett County, Georgia;
    Town of Clinton, Massachusetts;
    City of Everett, Massachusetts;
    City of Fitchburg, Massachusetts;
    City of Leominster, Massachusetts;
    City of Malden, Massachusetts;
    City of Methuen, Massachusetts;
    City of Randolph, Massachusetts;
    City of Salem, Massachusetts;
    Prince Georgeís County, Maryland;
    City of Detroit, Michigan;
    City of Flint, Michigan;
    City of Grand Rapids, Michigan;
    City of Pontiac, Michigan;
    City of Southfield, Michigan;
    City of Minneapolis, Minnesota;
    Hennepin County, Minnesota;
    Ramsey County, Minnesota;
    Cole County, Missouri;
    Alamance County, North Carolina;
    Columbus County, North Carolina;
    Harnett County, North Carolina;
    Mecklenburg County, North Carolina;
    Wayne County, North Carolina;
    Middlesex County, New Jersey;
    Bernalillo County, New Mexico;
    San Juan County, New Mexico;
    Clark County, Nevada;
    Washoe County, Nevada;
    Queens County, New York;
    Cuyahoga County, Ohio;
    Berks County, Pennsylvania;
    Centre County, Pennsylvania;
    Lehigh County, Pennsylvania;
    Luzerne County, Pennsylvania;
    Philadelphia County, Pennsylvania;
    City of Pawtucket, Rhode Island;
    Horry County, South Carolina;
    Dallas County, Texas;
    Harris County, Texas;
    Waller County, Texas;
    San Juan County, Utah;
    City of Manassas, Virginia;
    City of Manassas Park, Virginia;
    Prince William County, Virginia;
    City of Milwaukee, Wisconsin; and,
    City of Racine, Wisconsin.
    Monitors will include personnel from the Civil Rights Division and from U.S. Attorneysí Offices. In addition, the division also deploys monitors from the Office of Personnel Management, where authorized by federal court order. Division personnel will also maintain contact with state and local election officials.

    The Civil Rights Divisionís Voting Section enforces the civil provisions of federal statutes that protect the right to vote, including the Voting Rights Act, the Uniformed and Overseas Citizens Absentee Voting Act, the National Voter Registration Act, the Help America Vote Act and the Civil Rights Acts. The divisionís Disability Rights Section enforces the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) to ensure that persons with disabilities have a full and equal opportunity to vote. The divisionís Criminal Section enforces federal criminal statutes that prohibit voter intimidation and voter suppression based on race, color, national origin or religion.

    On Election Day, Civil Rights Division personnel will be available all day to receive complaints from the public related to possible violations of the federal voting rights laws by a complaint form on the departmentís website https://civilrights.justice.gov/ or by telephone toll-free at 800-253-3931.

    Individuals with questions or complaints related to the ADA may call the departmentís toll-free ADA information line at 800-514-0301 or 833-610-1264 (TTY) or submit a complaint through a link on the departmentís ADA website, at https://www.ada.gov/.

    Complaints related to disruption at a polling place should always be reported immediately to local election officials (including officials in the polling place). Complaints related to violence, threats of violence or intimidation at a polling place should be reported immediately to local police authorities by calling 911. These complaints should also be reported to the department after local authorities have been contacted.

    The Justice Department recently announced its overall plans for the general election to protect the right to vote and secure the integrity of the voting process through the work of the Civil Rights Division, Criminal Division, National Security Division and U.S. Attorneysí Offices.
    I see no rhyme nor reason to the locations they selected. Cole County is where the capital (Jefferson City) is located. Very conservative descendants of German immigrants. If you look at the sample ballot on the county website, you'll see most candidates are republicans running unopposed. What's there to observe? A bunch of republicans winning because there are no opponents? It doesn't make any sense to me, but team-red is all over the media saying Garland and Co are up to something.

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    One big difference is that evidence shows clear Russian interference in the 2016 election (so the accusations were justified), but that there has been zero evidence to show ballot-fraud in the 2020 election (so the accusations are unjustified).

    Neither political party is without flaw, what political party ever is. The rhetoric used by a lot of the more prominent Republicans shows that getting into power is far more important to them than fairness or even common decency.
    Yes, that is a good summary of the left's narrative.

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Agreed.

    Iím sure all sides have cheated to some extent throughout our history.
    Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?


    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    I believe Politico had a poll where about half of Americans reported distrust of our elections.
    Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    One big difference is that evidence shows clear Russian interference in the 2016 election (so the accusations were justified), but that there has been zero evidence to show ballot-fraud in the 2020 election (so the accusations are unjustified).

    Neither political party is without flaw, what political party ever is. The rhetoric used by a lot of the more prominent Republicans shows that getting into power is far more important to them than fairness or even common decency.
    Yes, that is a good summary of the left's narrative.
    Actually it's a summary of what neutral world news reports.

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Might take all night to fixÖ
    Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    In the cases of AZ and NJ, election officials are recommending returning later or dropping a paper ballot in a secure box to be counted later.

    In an environment that's not hyper-partisan, it makes perfect sense. But in today's environment, this feeds the republican narrative of chain of custody problems and other sorts of ways votes won't be counted.

    I suspect most complaints and accusations will come from the GOP, since pretty much everyone is expecting landslides. If that doesn't happen, particularly in locations with problems or places that take "up to weeks" to produce final results; it is going to be ugly.

    There's no legitimate reason to not know the winner on Election Day, or the following morning - at a minimum. The left is pushing this narrative (that it may be weeks before we know outcomes), which incites the right.

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    Iím sure all sides have cheated to some extent throughout our history.
    The historic Mayor Daley: https://blockclubchicago.org/2018/10...n-youve-heard/

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    Might take all night to fixÖ
    ba da bum...

    Clever.

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bold2013 View Post
    I believe Politico had a poll where about half of Americans reported distrust of our elections.
    I thought it was upwards of 70%.

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    This is not an issue with both parties nor have both parties been guilty of insurrection. It is not a problem at all, really. Trump and his administration tries to overturn the will of the people and he convinced millions he was cheated. He lost the popular vote twice.

    Russia has and is admitting to meddling even as we speak. There is plenty of investigative reporting to prove it for those not scared to read.

    Letís not conflate since it helps muddy the water and accomplishes nothing.

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    One big difference is that evidence shows clear Russian interference in the 2016 election (so the accusations were justified), but that there has been zero evidence to show ballot-fraud in the 2020 election (so the accusations are unjustified).

    Neither political party is without flaw, what political party ever is. The rhetoric used by a lot of the more prominent Republicans shows that getting into power is far more important to them than fairness or even common decency.
    Yes, that is a good summary of the left's narrative.
    Actually it's a summary of what neutral world news reports.
    Yes, that is a common claim from one side, that the other side doesn't believe.

    Competing narratives.

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    This is not an issue with both parties nor have both parties been guilty of insurrection. It is not a problem at all, really. Trump and his administration tries to overturn the will of the people and he convinced millions he was cheated. He lost the popular vote twice.

    Russia has and is admitting to meddling even as we speak. There is plenty of investigative reporting to prove it for those not scared to read.

    Letís not conflate since it helps muddy the water and accomplishes nothing.
    Yes, and Hillary propagated the "Russian collusion" hoax and convinced millions she was cheated.

    Each side has their narrative. Your post does a good job summarizing the left's.

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    One big difference is that evidence shows clear Russian interference in the 2016 election (so the accusations were justified), but that there has been zero evidence to show ballot-fraud in the 2020 election (so the accusations are unjustified).

    Neither political party is without flaw, what political party ever is. The rhetoric used by a lot of the more prominent Republicans shows that getting into power is far more important to them than fairness or even common decency.
    Yes, that is a good summary of the left's narrative.
    Actually it's a summary of what neutral world news reports.
    Yes, that is a common claim from one side, that the other side doesn't believe.

    Competing narratives.
    The neutral world news sites don't report this as a leftist narrative, but as a summary of the evidence.

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_of_Clouds View Post
    One big difference is that evidence shows clear Russian interference in the 2016 election (so the accusations were justified), but that there has been zero evidence to show ballot-fraud in the 2020 election (so the accusations are unjustified).

    Neither political party is without flaw, what political party ever is. The rhetoric used by a lot of the more prominent Republicans shows that getting into power is far more important to them than fairness or even common decency.
    Yes, that is a good summary of the left's narrative.
    Actually it's a summary of what neutral world news reports.
    Yes, that is a common claim from one side, that the other side doesn't believe.

    Competing narratives.
    The neutral world news sites don't report this as a leftist narrative, but as a summary of the evidence.
    That is one opinion, which becomes part of one side's narrative. Another side has a different opinion that is part of their narrative.

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Example for EoC:

    2020 U.S. election was a manual on the art of voter fraud

    An Australian news outlet, reporting on another country's election seems to qualify as international news, from my perspective. Should I believe it, or discount it? In either case, why?

    Both sides have their preferred outlets to propagate their narratives.
    Last edited by dneal; November 8th, 2022 at 12:48 PM. Reason: fixed link

    It's amazing how much panic one honest man can spread among a multitude of hypocrites.
    - Thomas Sowell

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    Default Re: Can we agree that neither party trusts the voting system(s)?

    Perhaps, but given that Sky News is owned by Rupert Murdoch I am cautious of claiming it to have neutral reportage.

    The article linked references a further article from The Spectator, which is a known conservative leaning organ.

    While technically Sky News is at the center of the political spectrum, it tends to lean further to the right, given its ownership and directorship history. Itís up to viewers to decide whether or not they feel it tends to overstep in one direction or the other. But itís safe to say that Sky News is not as balanced in its broadcasting as many competitors.

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