Any Point to Cursive?

[Brilliant Bill]

An opinion piece in today's The New York Times asks:

What's the Point of Teaching Cursive?

John McWhorter, a linguist at Columbia University suggests cursive has had its day. He likens those championing it to those who said silent movies were better than the ones then coming out with sound tracks. He makes some interesting points and goes through some of the usual arguments. I lean toward agreeing with him.

Personally, I've grown pretty weary of cursive. I started using it when I got "into" fountain pens again about 10 years ago. But I never really liked it when I learned it 70 years ago, abandoned it nearly my entire adult life, and now I'm using it only sparingly; why I don't really know. Maybe it has to do also with fountain pens as I'm growing sort of weary of them too. I've discovered some gel pens that are much smoother to write with, far less trouble to maintain --- and they put down a much more pleasing line on the paper. Also, they use a permanent, archival quality ink. And at less than $3, why would I want a fountain pen?

Anyway, the article is behind a paywall, of course. This link may get you around it, I don't know...

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/13/o...smid=share-url

[Lloyd]

Here's the PDF
http://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/63995fd7...NYTcursive.PDF


Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™

[Misfit]

I tend to write cursive most of the time. If I want to write fast, I can write cursive faster than printing. I’ve made some capital letters my own style, and simply like to write that way, especially with stub and italic nibs.

[dneal]

... I’ve made some capital letters my own style, and simply like to write that way, especially with stub and italic nibs.

Although the article is about cursive, I think this is an important point and I agree. When you look back at early writing, you find things like uncial majuscule - all caps print essentially - that's attractive. A stub/italic adds interest and you don't have to pay specific attention to the precise orientation of the nib like you would with true italic script. Modern architect print could also be a different example, just with the "stub" ground in a different direction. It makes for interesting and attractive print.

I wonder if cursive resulted from an evolution of nib (or quill) shape. A sharp point works exponentially better with a downstroke.

[TSherbs]

Agree, and it was my profession to teach writing (but not literacy)....

[Jon Szanto]

One could easily ask: What's the point of teaching poetry?

I've got the article slotted into my evening reading (daytime today is my backlogged correspondence) and then if I have any cogent thoughts, I'll type.

[TSherbs]

One could easily ask: What's the point of teaching poetry?

I asked it, professionally, every year. I have even given a speech answering it. That is a valid question.

[Yazeh]

Interesting option piece. But then the author, never did like cursive. I personally had always difficulty taking notes, but I always find a sense of peace and happiness if I write cursive or practice calligraphy.
I am not sure if writing engages the non-verbal right side of the brain (as it does with drawing). However, I've noticed that when I write for pleasure, my stress levels are non existent Typing on the other hand, is not so pleasant..

[dneal]

This got stuck in my head, probably because I agree with everything but the conclusion. I'm undecided on that.

I hated writing in cursive, simply because we had to. Even in college, when typewriters were out of circulation but computers weren't ubiquitous; most of my papers were written - in cursive. Once I had a career, I abandoned it for all caps print. It was easier and seemed just as fast. It was easily legible. I still take notes or make to-do lists in all caps print. I get what McWhorter is saying.

But none of that addresses the question, really. One might as well ask why teach writing, in this digital age. Why not teach 6-year olds how to read and type? Maybe that will be the question for a future decade, and I still don't have a settled conclusion in my mind.

That's probably because the question gets to a fundamental, philosophical "why"; which there often many arguments pro and con, and no clear answers. Why use a fountain pen? after all...

There's an argument for utility, should some apocalyptic type event happen and we lose technology. An EMP attack. Some previously not experienced solar event, or the magnetic poles shifting. Writing is a backup, just like physical books are. How many years have we heard the term "paperless"? only to find we prefer hitting "print" to read or save something that exists only digitally.

I prefer the argument of aesthetics, and it seems this is what draws the younger generation(s) to fountain pens. Cursive, or italic, or any sort of calligraphic letterform looks neat. There's an aesthetic pleasure to watching a neat formulation of ink leave a legacy of where the tip of a nib was just a moment ago. Watching the ink follow the trace, collecting toward the end of the stroke and creeping backwards ever so slightly. Watching a nice juicy nib leave an observable deposit of colored liquid on paper; and seeing the process of it drying.

Hmmm. I have the answer for Professor McWhorter. What's the point of teaching cursive? To have another excuse to appreciate fountain pens.

[Deb]

I don't know if there's any point to teaching cursive. It seems to be on its way out. I think that's a pity because I enjoy writing that way and reading it. I touch-type fast but that's just work to me, not pleasure. I never write in block capitals unless it's on a form that demands it; it looks childish to me. That's what we stopped doing at age seven when we learned cursive.

Cursive certainly had a point until quite recently. It was what was written on most official paper: military records, births, deaths and marriages but the ubiquitous printer has taken over most of that. Cursive may go quite soon apart from us dinosaurs. I'm not sure its demise has importance. Most of what I read now is in fonts like this.

[kazoolaw]

Sans Serif - the horror!!!
There has been a bit of a revival of teaching cursive.
Some professors have banned laptops in the classroom, including tech and law school.
See,https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annal...-the-classroom
There was a charming book, HANDWRITING - A National Survey by Reginald Pigott, George Allen and Unwin Ltd, 1958. The book was a survey with "over 400 illustrated examples [which] will show as far as possible all types of handwriting...." Sections were divided by occupation, type of pen, etc.
All this from a guy who was the only student in the entire third and fourth grades who could not earn a Palmer Handwriting Certificate, to the horror of his mother. I finally bought the Palmer pins on ebay.

[welch]

Sans Serif - the horror!!!
There has been a bit of a revival of teaching cursive.
Some professors have banned laptops in the classroom, including tech and law school.
See,https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annal...-the-classroom
There was a charming book, HANDWRITING - A National Survey by Reginald Pigott, George Allen and Unwin Ltd, 1958. The book was a survey with "over 400 illustrated examples [which] will show as far as possible all types of handwriting...." Sections were divided by occupation, type of pen, etc.
All this from a guy who was the only student in the entire third and fourth grades who could not earn a Palmer Handwriting Certificate, to the horror of his mother. I finally bought the Palmer pins on ebay.

Thanks, Kaz. Those professors have the right idea.

- We gathered with managers representing the customer group, and the "consultants" from a "Big Five" consulting firm, and me from SWIFT. One young MBA opened her laptop, prompting Bill, the managing partner to bark, "The customers are paying us $5,000 a day for your participation. I want your head in the meeting! Not in your screen! Close your laptop and pay attention, or leave". She closed the laptop (and shrank to a puddle). Bill appointed one of his most junior consultants to sit at a far corner of the conference table and take notes.

- My wife taught social work grad students. For the first few years, she ordered her seminar students to close their laptops and to put away their beloved cell phones. By the time she retired, she had given up.

Me? I began writing with TECO in 1981 (and a happy hats-off wo anyone who knows about TECO without looking it up), but I always took notes by hand. In my cursive, in which I use print-capital 'G' and "T" and a few other capitals that are too fancy for quick-writing.

Family?

- Our son had trouble writing legibly in class, then joined the Army and wrote fluently on computers.

- Our daughter argued this point last weekend: handwriting is old-fashioned, kids should be taught to keyboard early, and should also be allowed to take notes on a cellphone.

Maybe this is a fight we cannot win?

[Parsimonious]

- We gathered with managers representing the customer group, and the "consultants" from a "Big Five" consulting firm, and me from SWIFT. One young MBA opened her laptop, prompting Bill, the managing partner to bark, "The customers are paying us $5,000 a day for your participation. I want your head in the meeting! Not in your screen! Close your laptop and pay attention, or leave". She closed the laptop (and shrank to a puddle). Bill appointed one of his most junior consultants to sit at a far corner of the conference table and take notes.

All Bill accomplished was to demonstrate what an asshole he is. He could have A: simply asked the young lady to close her laptop. or B: even better, advised his people ahead of time that a laptop was not allowed. I doubt whether the customers were impressed.

[Chuck Naill]

I notice a hypocrisy and an archaic opinion at best. On the one hand the consultant was being paid $5000 and on the other the student was paying thousands to have a seat in the class. One is a customer and the other isn't. Neither should be using a computer...LOL!!

[welch]

I notice a hypocrisy and an archaic opinion at best. On the one hand the consultant was being paid $5000 and on the other the student was paying thousands to have a seat in the class. One is a customer and the other isn't. Neither should be using a computer...LOL!!

Grad students are not customers. They pay money to be taught, and that money pays teachers and the school that provides the buildings and the library. Students are required to demonstrate that they have mastered the knowledge and a skill to be passed into a profession. For that matter, so are undergraduates in that everyone must write papers, take tests, speak in class.

If a student is a customer, then they could just pay and get a degree.

[Sailor Kenshin]

All I know is, I like to write by hand.

In grade school, I was held after class, bullied and vilified for my sloppy southpaw cursive. They tried and failed to make me switch hands. Fountain pens helped enormously with my desire to improve my hand.

[arrow]

Just a response to a claim in the NYT article; I have never heard cursive could be any better than other hand writing for memory and the cognitive process. I think that must be some mix up from hand writing and paper versus typing and keyboard?

In my observation and personal experience most people may need a firm up of their hand writing as the years go by. Readability and neatness have little to do with the style of writing. Through life, as the decades go by, things happen to us, we often need to renew our skills and physical fine tuning. These brake or interruptions that happen to us are not reasons to leave off anything, at least if you have any need or desire to write. Keeping up our skills and abilities are what heals and renew us in many ways. I am pretty sure that snipping off too much and not letting anything grow back will not be good for us. Not everything should be done on a touch pad or laptop and pc keyboard. Cursive writing comes in many versions, some more elaborate, but the basic modern ones close to Spencerian/Palmer are up to any style when it comes to ease, speed and readability.

I think we were much better at reading hand writing in the 1980s and 90s, particularly those harder to decipher. A lot has to do with practice. We had notebooks, letters, postcards in the mail all the time. I don`t think and write the same way with pen and paper as I do on a computer and LCD screen. There is always someone who wants to get rid of something, snip off and simplify too much.

[joolstacho]

I love the smoother, more expressive, individualistic nature of cursive handwriting. Also, my observations of (mature) student writing is that the more 'jagged' finger / hand movement required with non-cursive (Caps? - can't get on with the term 'print' 'cos it's not!) could well be less kind on the little muscles. I do find that my grip on the pen is a little more relaxed when cursive writing. On a related note, I am APPALLED to see how badly the kids of today hold a pen or pencil. All sorts of strange finger positions that really inhibit subtle control. One can only blame the teachers, most of whom probably don't know (or care) any different.

[TSherbs]

One can only blame the teachers, most of whom probably don't know (or care) any different.

That's not fair, or accurate.

[manoeuver]

I read the article and it's midwit modern garbage.

This McWhorter fella's vibes and arguments are aesthetically bereft (and I don't think he'd see anything wrong with that.)

Cursive is important because it's beautiful when done well. If you don't value beauty it won't make any sense.

(warning, cranky opinions follow)

Creating beauty with handwriting requires dedication, practice, effort, and results in a measurable improvement of the practitioner.

All these traditional values have come to be anathema to the Columbia Professor/NYT columnist type.
They fail to understand the value of something then declare there is no value there.
Thoroughly modern hubris. Dreck. Trash.

If/when the power goes out this guy will be eaten within a week.