Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 79

Thread: Any Point to Cursive?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Sailor Kenshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Where pigs run free!
    Posts
    3,988
    Thanks
    6,185
    Thanked 3,387 Times in 1,698 Posts
    Rep Power
    16

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Kenshin View Post
    We churned butter in school. I could still do it.
    You aren't a kid, anymore...
    That much is certain!

    …and Chrissie, yes, I can. Several ways. 😉

    In high school, I made butter for a party using the Mason Jar method. It was a huge hit with pumpernickel/raisin bread.
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

    And my other blog is a tumblr!


    And my latest ebook, for spooky wintery reading:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CM2NGSSD

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sailor Kenshin For This Useful Post:

    Chrissy (December 22nd, 2022), Deb (December 22nd, 2022)

  3. #22
    Senior Member FredRydr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Carlisle, Pennsylvania USA
    Posts
    4,903
    Thanks
    1,395
    Thanked 6,379 Times in 2,500 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by manoeuver View Post

    If/when the power goes out this guy will be eaten within a week.
    I like that.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to FredRydr For This Useful Post:

    Deb (December 22nd, 2022), manoeuver (December 23rd, 2022)

  5. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,750
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    What is the point in teaching American history?
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

  6. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,656
    Thanks
    2,026
    Thanked 2,188 Times in 1,418 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    To add a bit of epilogue to this thread, I just saw another article pop up in my news feed that is a collection of reader responses to the article. I hope the link is accessible to most of you, but let me know if it isn't and I'll see if there is another route.

    Who Cares About Cursive? Kids Don’t Learn to Churn Butter Anymore, Either.
    Thanks Jon, I could read it.

    Like the opening letter states, most of the sense of loss is wistful and nostalgic, and that would be mostly from only those who were good at it in school or came to appreciate and/or practice the art (aesthetics). And that isn't most people. Handwriting is a laborious task for many people, especially those who struggle with fine motor precision. To have to learn more than one form of legible writing is...what...superfluity of suffering? Or, as I have argued elsewhere, it was mostly the product of cultural class elitism (the separation of the elite/schooled/refined from the rest of the rabble).

  7. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,750
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Organic Chemistry and Westen Civ "weeds" out good doctors and others. For me it's BS to consider how one writes.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

  8. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,703
    Thanks
    136
    Thanked 605 Times in 442 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Handwriting is a laborious task for many people, especially those who struggle with fine motor precision. To have to learn more than one form of legible writing is...what...superfluity of suffering? Or, as I have argued elsewhere, it was mostly the product of cultural class elitism (the separation of the elite/schooled/refined from the rest of the rabble).
    Odd, I had heard repetition was a way to improve fine motor skills. Maybe associated with muscle memory?
    Can't speak for everyone's school experience. In my hometown The Palmer Method was taught to all social classes, even us barbarians.
    Of course, it took better with some rather than others.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to kazoolaw For This Useful Post:

    Jon Szanto (December 23rd, 2022)

  10. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    238
    Thanks
    45
    Thanked 97 Times in 71 Posts
    Rep Power
    5

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    [
    ...The Palmer Method was taught to all social classes, even us barbarians.
    Of course, it took better with some rather than others.
    [/SIZE][/FONT]
    I think Spencerian was implemented as a basic standard in schools and business writing too, much the same way as the Palmer method. It was developed for speed of writing and the idea of a continuous line. Earlier standards was often versions of round hand, a bit more laborious and decorative. There were always both simpler and more decorative styles of writing.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to arrow For This Useful Post:

    Jon Szanto (December 23rd, 2022)

  12. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    319
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 93 Times in 55 Posts
    Rep Power
    4

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    I think and believe that handwriting is useful and necessary, whichever way you use it. If you can't get your head around it it is your problem but you can't cancel it for this. Every silly 'revolution' that comes from America and England is pure folly. Classical authors can't be thought anymore due to their bias in one direction or the other, bias that is defined by a mass of ignorant people, especially professors that should be protecting these views that obviously can be confuted but not avoided. Mozart is considered bad, philosophers the same. Classical authors are banned from University courses because they aren't 'inclusive'??? Get a grip raise your culture instead of lowering it. We will all be zombies soon. Fahrenheit 451 is where we are heading if these things don't stop. IMO
    Merry Christmas to all. Peace and love

  13. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to MarcoA64 For This Useful Post:

    Cyril (December 24th, 2022), Deb (December 24th, 2022), Doggy Daddy (December 24th, 2022), Jon Szanto (December 24th, 2022), Wahl (December 25th, 2022), Yazeh (December 24th, 2022), Zhivago (January 7th, 2023)

  14. #29
    Senior Member Sailor Kenshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Where pigs run free!
    Posts
    3,988
    Thanks
    6,185
    Thanked 3,387 Times in 1,698 Posts
    Rep Power
    16

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcoA64 View Post
    I think and believe that handwriting is useful and necessary, whichever way you use it. If you can't get your head around it it is your problem but you can't cancel it for this. Every silly 'revolution' that comes from America and England is pure folly. Classical authors can't be thought anymore due to their bias in one direction or the other, bias that is defined by a mass of ignorant people, especially professors that should be protecting these views that obviously can be confuted but not avoided. Mozart is considered bad, philosophers the same. Classical authors are banned from University courses because they aren't 'inclusive'??? Get a grip raise your culture instead of lowering it. We will all be zombies soon. Fahrenheit 451 is where we are heading if these things don't stop. IMO
    Merry Christmas to all. Peace and love
    My other pen is a Montblanc.

    And my other blog is a tumblr!


    And my latest ebook, for spooky wintery reading:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CM2NGSSD

  15. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,750
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    What is important is to be able to communicate. If handwritten notices suffice, so be it.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Chuck Naill For This Useful Post:

    Lloyd (December 24th, 2022)

  17. #31
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    6,605
    Thanks
    7,789
    Thanked 11,015 Times in 4,003 Posts
    Rep Power
    22

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    What is important is to be able to communicate. If handwritten notices suffice, so be it.
    Reducing everything to mere function is an inelegant, uninspiring way to live. There is a time and place for the mere grunt of a string of letters, just as there is a need for the beauty of a hand-written script. To deny either pathway, to the exclusion of the other, is to describe a smaller, poorer life experience.
    Last edited by Jon Szanto; December 24th, 2022 at 12:31 PM. Reason: Reduction of clumsy verbiage.
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

  18. #32
    Senior Member Cyril's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    843
    Thanks
    1,898
    Thanked 556 Times in 290 Posts
    Rep Power
    7

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcoA64 View Post
    I think and believe that handwriting is useful and necessary, whichever way you use it. If you can't get your head around it it is your problem but you can't cancel it for this. Every silly 'revolution' that comes from America and England is pure folly. Classical authors can't be thought anymore due to their bias in one direction or the other, bias that is defined by a mass of ignorant people, especially professors that should be protecting these views that obviously can be confuted but not avoided. Mozart is considered bad, philosophers the same. Classical authors are banned from University courses because they aren't 'inclusive'??? Get a grip raise your culture instead of lowering it. We will all be zombies soon. Fahrenheit 451 is where we are heading if these things don't stop. IMO
    Merry Christmas to all. Peace and love

    @MarcoA64 .. I can't agree more and it is well said !!!

  19. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    172
    Thanks
    826
    Thanked 271 Times in 111 Posts
    Rep Power
    4

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    "What's the point of learning to cook? We have microwaves and TV dinners."

    The point of learning cursive is that you need to understand how to write it in order to read it. If you don't think being able to read cursive is important then you're drastically underestimating how many things simply pass out of existence. Grandma's cookbook. Grandpa's genealogy work. Poof! You can't read it, and it isn't important enough for "scholars" to read it for you.

    My kiddo (home-schooled) is learning cursive. I have a fountain pen and bottle of ink waiting.
    Last edited by SlowMovingTarget; December 29th, 2022 at 12:52 PM.
    "The world will little note, nor long remember, what we say here..." -- Abraham Lincoln, 1863

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to SlowMovingTarget For This Useful Post:

    Doggy Daddy (December 25th, 2022)

  21. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,656
    Thanks
    2,026
    Thanked 2,188 Times in 1,418 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Handwriting is a laborious task for many people, especially those who struggle with fine motor precision. To have to learn more than one form of legible writing is...what...superfluity of suffering? Or, as I have argued elsewhere, it was mostly the product of cultural class elitism (the separation of the elite/schooled/refined from the rest of the rabble).
    Odd, I had heard repetition was a way to improve fine motor skills. Maybe associated with muscle memory?
    Can't speak for everyone's school experience. In my hometown The Palmer Method was taught to all social classes, even us barbarians.
    Of course, it took better with some rather than others.
    I mean the roots and origin of connected writing (flourish, elegance, the quality "of one's hand.") These are the trappings of a cultural heritage of class- conscious elitism. We still judge people's "refinement" this way. Printing on nearly all these threads is considered less elegant and refined (and thus less cultured) than all the other types that include artful connectedness or flourish.

    Yes, both Europe and America made efforts to educate and refine down through the classes. With varying success.

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to TSherbs For This Useful Post:

    Lloyd (December 25th, 2022)

  23. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    238
    Thanks
    45
    Thanked 97 Times in 71 Posts
    Rep Power
    5

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    ...

    I mean the roots and origin of connected writing (flourish, elegance, the quality "of one's hand.") These are the trappings of a cultural heritage of class- conscious elitism. We still judge people's "refinement" this way. Printing on nearly all these threads is considered less elegant and refined (and thus less cultured) than all the other types that include artful connectedness or flourish.

    Yes, both Europe and America made efforts to educate and refine down through the classes. With varying success.

    From a certain perspective it can seem to be so, but I doubt the basic grammar school writing was anything particular but adjusted to children, ease of writing and everyday use. When the fluent writing styles were developed and became more common (closer to 17. century I think?), not everybody could read and write. Since Charlemagne there have been several major attempts to to improve writing by simplifying, making it easier to read and write. Renaissance hand writing is often very close to so called print letters, done with stub nib and the effects you can get from that. A simple version of this is print letters. Style has always been important, and anything your mind can come up with can be projected onto it. I doubt the connected letters, fluent writing and its origins are a trapping in any way, At this point you can make what you want of it and some prefer one over the other for various reasons.

  24. The Following User Says Thank You to arrow For This Useful Post:

    Deb (December 26th, 2022)

  25. #36
    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    8,327
    Thanks
    9,751
    Thanked 6,003 Times in 2,190 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    @arrow, we might want to define cursive... I think one can argue that cursive has been here since Roman Empire
    This I found on Wikipedia...


  26. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Yazeh For This Useful Post:

    arrow (December 26th, 2022), Deb (December 27th, 2022)

  27. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Time
    Posts
    434
    Thanks
    523
    Thanked 673 Times in 274 Posts
    Rep Power
    8

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    I just came across the NYT letters-to-editor piece responding to their original article. After reading that and all the posts here, I wonder if it all isn't just so much piffle. Several thoughts have occurred to me as a result.

    Beginning in 1953 I spent several years being formally educated to write in "cursive," Palmer Method. Yet in all succeeding years of formal education, almost nothing I was assigned to read was in cursive. My formal education (18 or more years!) had nothing to do with cursive! So, what was the point? That I could read a letter sent home from my teacher to my parents? So someday I could read a letter sent home about my children? I just don't know. I have to conclude it was possibly a Nineteenth Century notion about business practicality that was already well past its time. At my father's office in the fifties I saw adding machines and typewriters, saw nothing in cursive hand. I probably would have better spent my time learning something more useful --- piano, shorthand, quantum mechanics?

    One of the strongest planks in the pro-cursive argument seems to be that we need to be able to read documents from the past --- my grandmother's cooking recipes or a letter from a Nineteenth Century vice president to his paramour. Well, it occurs to me I also cannot read ancient Greek, my Latin is abysmal, and I'm only halting in Spanish or French. What I do know is that today I can pick up a smart phone, scan any of those things and Google will instantly translate it for me. How tough would it be to do the same thing with cursive? I suspect the ability to read cursive may not be the most useful survival skill in a post-apocalyptic world where we don't have smart phones or electric power.

    I suspect for most of us, any allure of cursive has to do with fountain pens. Yesterday I cleaned up my Platinum music nib, loaded it with Kobe Silent Night ink (seasonal, I guess) and spent time gliding it across fine paper recounting the arrival of winter and a seven-degree night and the hillbillies across the street chopping down a holly tree at Christmas. Quite a pleasant hour.

    I think it's best we accept the inevitability of cursive education going the way of the log cabin. Surely there will always be folks who do it as a hobby or narrow interest --- as happens with all endeavors. We all use digital cameras now, but there's a tiny subset of photographers using film. Some of them even go Nineteenth Century with wet plate collodion and its toxic chemicals. I haven't looked, but I'll bet you could find a group of people who collect and wear old bow ties (might also be the ones with fountain pens in their pockets!).

  28. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Brilliant Bill For This Useful Post:

    Deb (December 27th, 2022), Lloyd (December 27th, 2022), TSherbs (December 27th, 2022)

  29. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    238
    Thanks
    45
    Thanked 97 Times in 71 Posts
    Rep Power
    5

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliant Bill View Post
    ...

    Beginning in 1953 I spent several years being formally educated to write in "cursive," Palmer Method. Yet in all succeeding years of formal education, almost nothing I was assigned to read was in cursive. My formal education (18 or more years!) had nothing to do with cursive!...
    By the 1950s many European countries taught a form of handwriting closer to "print", singular letters with option of slightly connecting the line between some letters. When done well it is a very neat and easy to read type of writing, it real life only few kept up the original neat standard. The rational for this was that typing was now the standard as well as short hand (My parents generation was taught short hand but hardly used it later on). Some types of printed letters, size, spacing,... compare better to others when it comes to speed and easy reading. It is hard to make a comparison of this to any hand writing. By the 1980s when I began school they taugh a form of cursive very close to basic Spencerian / Palmer with a few alternations. It was considered easy to write and possibly an advantage when it came to speed. At the time, most personal letters we received were hand writing, some business related too, particularly if it was suppose to be personal. There were a lot of cursive even to this day I receive hand written cursive. I have heard pros and cons on this for as long as I have been writing, some seem to be imagined more than relevant for real life. I doubt style of font matters much, but as long as any one writes by hand and the advantages and options that come with it still are used there is no reason to prune out cursive or connected letters. We just end up with a generation not that capable of reading others hand writing. I personally love the time by my writing desk when the computer and phone are dormant.
    Last edited by arrow; December 27th, 2022 at 08:51 AM.

  30. The Following User Says Thank You to arrow For This Useful Post:

    Lloyd (December 27th, 2022)

  31. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,656
    Thanks
    2,026
    Thanked 2,188 Times in 1,418 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by arrow View Post
    ... We just end up with a generation not that capable of reading others hand writing. I personally love the time by my writing desk when the computer and phone are dormant.
    That's not happening, tho (not a whole "generation"). My students, for the last 30 years, could write by hand and read any kind of writing (except for the most ornate, which I have trouble reading also--like copperplate), as long as it was neat enough (illegible writing comes in all forms).

    As Bill said, most of this is "piffle," a holding onto a kind of sentiment for more ornate and artful handwriting from our past. Which only *some* can execute with any real alacrity.
    Last edited by TSherbs; December 27th, 2022 at 09:37 AM.

  32. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TSherbs For This Useful Post:

    Brilliant Bill (December 28th, 2022), Lloyd (December 27th, 2022)

  33. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    238
    Thanks
    45
    Thanked 97 Times in 71 Posts
    Rep Power
    5

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    The question is mainly related to the standard chosen for all pupils nation wide, and for the current times it is already done. From my point of view, the standard cursive taught with a pencil or pen doesn`t have any disadvantages to single standing print letters. The young people I know who are now in their 20s were never taught cursive in school, those who are 30 or nearly there were taught cursive. I have come across several people who wasn`t taught cursive in school, who just put hand written texts down and say they can`t read it. It doesn`t apply to all of course. The latest corrective on school writing in my country (2020) is that students should be encouraged to develop their own style of writing early on, how free the are to choose I am not sure.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •