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Thread: Any Point to Cursive?

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by arrow View Post
    The question is mainly related to the standard chosen for all pupils nation wide, and for the current times it is already done. From my point of view, the standard cursive taught with a pencil or pen doesn`t have any disadvantages to single standing print letters. The young people I know who are now in their 20s were never taught cursive in school, those who are 30 or nearly there were taught cursive. I have come across several people who wasn`t taught cursive in school, who just put hand written texts down and say they can`t read it. It doesn`t apply to all of course. The latest corrective on school writing in my country (2020) is that students should be encouraged to develop their own style of writing early on, how free the are to choose I am not sure.
    I am not sure where you live. In the USA, educational standards are controlled at the state level, not nationally, and then local districts also have some level of curricular control. The school I just retired from still teaches cursive in grades 2 and 3. Most schools no longer *require* the teaching of cursive (for the English language), but many districts and schools still introduce it and practice it. The challenge is to make sure that in taking the time to do so that you are not neglecting some other *required* standard.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Szanto View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    What is important is to be able to communicate. If handwritten notices suffice, so be it.
    Reducing everything to mere function is an inelegant, uninspiring way to live. There is a time and place for the mere grunt of a string of letters, just as there is a need for the beauty of a hand-written script. To deny either pathway, to the exclusion of the other, is to describe a smaller, poorer life experience.
    I’d rather construct a Gettysburg Address in Lincoln’s handwriting than some less significant in better handwriting. What makes a thing elegant is the substance, for me. However, you may judge the substance inferior to handwriting.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    I didn't know you had retired. Congratulations on at least partially completing a career worthy of our better angels!!! (You may stop getting paid for it, but a teacher never stops teaching!)

    Teachers are the best people, and your posts here over the years have always exemplified that!!!


    [QUOTE=TSherbs;385413]
    Quote Originally Posted by arrow View Post
    The school I just retired from still teaches cursive in grades 2 and 3. Most schools no longer *require* the teaching of cursive (for the English language), but many districts and schools still introduce it and practice it. The challenge is to make sure that in taking the time to do so that you are not neglecting some other *required* standard.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Most of us around here have been enjoying fountain pens for years. For some of us decades.

    Writing with fountain pens has never been about practicality and certainly not about convenience, but the joy of it all. Even maintaining them becomes a pleasure to those of us that value the magic of writing. There are so many facets of fountain pens. The joy of inks, colors, shading, shimmer. The art as in some Japanese examples or Kullock. Collecting vintage writing instruments, repairing, nib grinding. And all the other attributes that come with the joy of fountain pens. One large one is the friendships I have made because of them. And I can honestly say I have not met better or smarter people than those that enjoy fountain pens!

    Sometimes it is seasonal for me. I may go months without picking up a fountain pen and then just as quickly as I lay them down, I pick them up again.

    Why fountain pens? They bring a measure of joy. Simple!

    Here is wishing you all a bon voyage, from grail to grail!
    Last edited by Bisquitlips; December 30th, 2022 at 11:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Sans Serif - the horror!!!
    There has been a bit of a revival of teaching cursive.
    Some professors have banned laptops in the classroom, including tech and law school.
    See,https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annal...-the-classroom
    There was a charming book, HANDWRITING - A National Survey by Reginald Pigott, George Allen and Unwin Ltd, 1958. The book was a survey with "over 400 illustrated examples [which] will show as far as possible all types of handwriting...." Sections were divided by occupation, type of pen, etc.
    All this from a guy who was the only student in the entire third and fourth grades who could not earn a Palmer Handwriting Certificate, to the horror of his mother. I finally bought the Palmer pins on ebay.
    Thanks, Kaz. Those professors have the right idea.

    - We gathered with managers representing the customer group, and the "consultants" from a "Big Five" consulting firm, and me from SWIFT. One young MBA opened her laptop, prompting Bill, the managing partner to bark, "The customers are paying us $5,000 a day for your participation. I want your head in the meeting! Not in your screen! Close your laptop and pay attention, or leave". She closed the laptop (and shrank to a puddle). Bill appointed one of his most junior consultants to sit at a far corner of the conference table and take notes.

    - My wife taught social work grad students. For the first few years, she ordered her seminar students to close their laptops and to put away their beloved cell phones. By the time she retired, she had given up.

    Me? I began writing with TECO in 1981 (and a happy hats-off wo anyone who knows about TECO without looking it up), but I always took notes by hand. In my cursive, in which I use print-capital 'G' and "T" and a few other capitals that are too fancy for quick-writing.

    Family?

    - Our son had trouble writing legibly in class, then joined the Army and wrote fluently on computers.

    - Our daughter argued this point last weekend: handwriting is old-fashioned, kids should be taught to keyboard early, and should also be allowed to take notes on a cellphone.

    Maybe this is a fight we cannot win?
    Last edited by welch; December 31st, 2022 at 09:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    I can’t see banning laps tops primarily because the student is the customer. Is there a compelling reason a teacher need to be looked at? Why can’t a consultant use a computer. Are we wanting her face or her information? Sounds like egos.

    Imagine a bike shop demanding their patrons must not transport their bikes with a vehicle.

    There is a form where the first letter is printed and the rest cursive. That’s what I tend to do. It’s more legible.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliant Bill View Post
    I didn't know you had retired. Congratulations on at least partially completing a career worthy of our better angels!!! (You may stop getting paid for it, but a teacher never stops teaching!)

    Teachers are the best people, and your posts here over the years have always exemplified that!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    ....The school I just retired from still teaches cursive in grades 2 and 3. Most schools no longer *require* the teaching of cursive (for the English language), but many districts and schools still introduce it and practice it. The challenge is to make sure that in taking the time to do so that you are not neglecting some other *required* standard.
    Thanks, Bill. This shows your largesse!

    Happy New Year!

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I can’t see banning laps tops primarily because the student is the customer. Is there a compelling reason a teacher need to be looked at? Why can’t a consultant use a computer. Are we wanting her face or her information? Sounds like egos.

    Imagine a bike shop demanding their patrons must not transport their bikes with a vehicle.

    There is a form where the first letter is printed and the rest cursive. That’s what I tend to do. It’s more legible.
    - Students are not customers. In a seminar, they should attend to the discussion and not to letting their mind wander through games, email, or the Internet in general. It is a seminar".

    - When consultants are paid by customers, by real customers, to take part in a discussion, the consulting company is being paid for the attention they bring. For their thoughts applied to a business problem.

    In neither case is it a matter of ego. Not unless it is the ego of a selfish student, a lazy student who wants to stand aside from a class discussion. Or the ego of a consultant who wants to be paid but does not want to put in the effort to work through the client's problems.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    What if the student is faster/better at taking notes using the laptop than paper?

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
    M: I came here for a good argument.
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    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    What if the student is faster/better at taking notes using the laptop than paper?

    It certainly should show by now?

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post

    - Students are not customers. In a seminar, they should attend to the discussion and not to letting their mind wander through games, email, or the Internet in general. It is a seminar".

    - When consultants are paid by customers, by real customers, to take part in a discussion, the consulting company is being paid for the attention they bring. For their thoughts applied to a business problem.

    In neither case is it a matter of ego. Not unless it is the ego of a selfish student, a lazy student who wants to stand aside from a class discussion. Or the ego of a consultant who wants to be paid but does not want to put in the effort to work through the client's problems.
    You never had a boring, boorish, arbitrary, egotistical instructor? If not, you were lucky (odds were against you). I worked with several over the years.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    - We gathered with managers representing the customer group, and the "consultants" from a "Big Five" consulting firm, and me from SWIFT. One young MBA opened her laptop, prompting Bill, the managing partner to bark, "The customers are paying us $5,000 a day for your participation. I want your head in the meeting! Not in your screen! Close your laptop and pay attention, or leave". She closed the laptop (and shrank to a puddle). Bill appointed one of his most junior consultants to sit at a far corner of the conference table and take notes.
    All Bill accomplished was to demonstrate what an asshole he is. He could have A: simply asked the young lady to close her laptop. or B: even better, advised his people ahead of time that a laptop was not allowed. I doubt whether the customers were impressed.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    I notice a hypocrisy and an archaic opinion at best. On the one hand the consultant was being paid $5000 and on the other the student was paying thousands to have a seat in the class. One is a customer and the other isn't. Neither should be using a computer...LOL!!
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    What if the student is faster/better at taking notes using the laptop than paper?

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
    It's an issue of focus, of paying attention. With a laptop, you have a screen in front of your face, and the keyboard and mouse...and your emails and the rest of the Internet.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    I notice a hypocrisy and an archaic opinion at best. On the one hand the consultant was being paid $5000 and on the other the student was paying thousands to have a seat in the class. One is a customer and the other isn't. Neither should be using a computer...LOL!!
    Grad students are not customers. They pay money to be taught, and that money pays teachers and the school that provides the buildings and the library. Students are required to demonstrate that they have mastered the knowledge and a skill to be passed into a profession. For that matter, so are undergraduates in that everyone must write papers, take tests, speak in class.

    If a student is a customer, then they could just pay and get a degree.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    There was a study about laptop note takers vs written note takers. I'll dig up the link if anyone actually wants to read it.

    The best laptop note takers could type fast enough to transcribe a lecture in real-time. Hand writers couldn't (I guess it's time to bring back shorthand?)

    Both groups recalled facts equally as well. There was perhaps some longer-term retention by hand writers.

    Hand writers demonstrated better understanding and retention of concepts, which makes sense if you have to process a lecture and organize ideas presented into more concise notes.
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    My experience suggest that all these "retention" studies may not be valid. They would not sway me in one direction or the other.

    I never took a single note in college. As soon as I started writing something on paper, I had to stop listening --- so I would miss half of what was said. I did far better simply listening attentively, then making any particular notes I felt necessary afterward. I suspect it may have helped that I tested at 98% on an oral comprehension test.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Grad students are not customers. They pay money to be taught, and that money pays teachers and the school that provides the buildings and the library. Students are required to demonstrate that they have mastered the knowledge and a skill to be passed into a profession. For that matter, so are undergraduates in that everyone must write papers, take tests, speak in class.

    If a student is a customer, then they could just pay and get a degree.
    So, by that logic, if I pay for piano lessons but I never learn to play the piano, I am not a customer. I always figured that money had something to do with who is a customer.

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by dneal View Post
    Hand writers couldn't.
    Which can/may lead to more selective and meaningful note taking.
    Add Lightness and Simplicate

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    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliant Bill View Post
    My experience suggest that all these "retention" studies may not be valid. They would not sway me in one direction or the other.

    I never took a single note in college. As soon as I started writing something on paper, I had to stop listening --- so I would miss half of what was said. I did far better simply listening attentively, then making any particular notes I felt necessary afterward. I suspect it may have helped that I tested at 98% on an oral comprehension test.
    "Outlier Bill"

    <wave>

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