dneal (January 3rd, 2023)
People with pens can doodle and write poetry to avoid the meeting, too. I've worked alongside some young engineers who worked faster and more efficiently via laptop note taking (much easier for them to edit, organize, file, and re-purpose at a later date) than they could with handwriting.
Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
Chuck Naill (January 4th, 2023)
Our conversation has morphed into education. I was reading this op-ed this morning about college success. One point to consider is that students see college as a pathway for success. They understand there are requirements and decide which college to attend. Those factors make colleges a business and the student the consumer/customer.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/03/o...smid=share-url
“He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8
Bisquitlips (January 6th, 2023)
Thanks for the share, Chuck. Interesting article. Of course college students are partly in customer roles. It's not an exact analogy, but we know the degree to which it fits. The professors also know the pressures of having to deliver a product (experience) that has both quality and customer satisfaction involved. I don't think that there is much real debate about this. When the state takes over and makes attendance mandatory and children are involved, we get a different kind of dynamic.
Brilliant Bill (January 4th, 2023), Chuck Naill (January 4th, 2023), Lloyd (January 4th, 2023)
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
TSherbs (January 5th, 2023)
For me, it isn't a question of logic nor one of economy.
If we (humans of this planet) are unable to see meaning in things and in activities that are not following efficiency and optimisation of economic value, what will be left? On the same type of argument, you may ask: why learning to play an instrument, why learning to handcraft something, why learning to cook for yourself, why churn butter, why ... you got the point.
Not limited to handwriting or to using fountain pens and inks, in many different aspects of our life, I get the impression that "efficiency" is the new word for inquisition. We are scarifying long-term achievements of what we formerly called "culture" and what we claimed to be the difference between existing and living. We abandon culture for a vague promise of efficiency or for an advantage over our neighbours. Is an optimised life, in time and in cost, any better than a life with scope?
And finally: No, there should not be a "must" for children to learn something. There should be a must for parents, for grandparents and even for neighbours and teachers to encourage the children having interest and curiosity in life so that they (the children) ask by themselves for being taught in handwriting, drawing, music, art, .... (I would feel more comfortable living in such a world). OK, I'm aware such would not happen, not in 1000 years. Sparking interest in non-economic things and activities by "soft" force, such as a mandatory basic course and an optional advanced course in school, at least, sounds justified.
Yes, that's a subjective claim.
Chuck Naill (January 5th, 2023), Deb (January 5th, 2023), dneal (January 8th, 2023), Lithium466 (January 5th, 2023), manoeuver (January 5th, 2023), TSherbs (January 5th, 2023)
As a non American (also, I'm old), I'm always surprised by such discussion about cursive. I write in cursive because that's the only way I know (that doesn't mean my handwriting is nice), that's what we were taught in school and what everybody used, no question asked. (I did learn to churn butter in school too! And had an accident when making the Christmas log when I mixed cream and chocolate for 10 seconds too many and had the mix start to granulate slightly...let's melt everything and restart!)
The same was true at work and in many places, until I moved to Canada and "discovered" that I was literally the only one writing in cursive...and then that fountain pens were not "the norm" for people who have to write a lot, and quickly. Kind of an awakening, showing my age!
I've always tried to work smart, not hard. I see many of my younger colleagues writing so slowly in print or whatever this is called. I see them struggling to get the meaning of an email when there is more than a few lines of text. I quickly understood that asking several questions in an email was only a way to get partial answers.
On that I will join InesF's post above. We sacrificed many things on the autel of an optimized life, and diluted culture. On some aspects it feels like a waste.
Chuck Naill (January 5th, 2023), manoeuver (January 5th, 2023), TSherbs (January 5th, 2023), Zhivago (January 8th, 2023)
I once had an adjunct professor explain that in a junior or community college, her performance was evaluated by the students. This is in contrast to tenured professors. Also, when working students return to finish a degree, as I did, my cohort was more demanding. I once had an instructor ask me to meet and critique her. I explained that she was confusing in her delivery of information for which we were being tested. This conversation after the class had concluded and grades distributed. During one exam she suddenly noticed she had miswritten the question. That really pissed us off, but we recovered.
What is being discussed finally is that a class can be populate with a wide range of demographics. Some students don't even have access to WIFI or a computer at all. Some have to work to pay their tuition, some can join Greek social groups. And finally weed out classes are being demonstrated against.
Again, how one takes notes or delivers information to a business group should not be critiqued because it does not matter. It certainly is not a reason to be skilled in cursive...LOL!!
“He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8
Lloyd (January 5th, 2023)
Havent read the article, so don't know if anything's said about this, but 'Any point to...'
What does he propose we do for personal signatures? Are we to aspire to reach the higher technological ground as we rush into the future, & perhaps use charred sticks to scrawl our 'X' on the dotted line?
I've got a related Christmas story that might go here, but it's too spooky for me to tell right now.
In the article, the author makes fun of illegible signatures, often by famous people. But, he misses the point. As noted earlier in this thread, a signature doesn't need to be legible. Mine certainly isn't. It's a way of verifying a person's concurrence. Any scrawl would suffice as long as it is consistent.
Jon Szanto (January 5th, 2023)
Wait...he took a selfie of his signature??
Ishmael had re-branded himself with one name, the Ocho-cinco of Nantucket.
M-m-m, not exactly.
If you were filing pleadings in the St. Joseph County Circuit Court in the 1980's the Judge required a legible signature. If he judged it was not, the document would be rejected and returned along with a much photocopied page advising that signatures must be legible, rejecting scrawls, and admonishing against the use of "Spencerian flourishes."
A physician I once called on had a signature that looked like a sideways tornado. At least the pharmacist knew it wasn't a forged prescription.
“He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8
A big +1 to all of the above.
Cursive is beautiful and also, I think, more personal and individual than printed writing. My mother, who passed away about 6 years ago, had unique cursive handwriting. It was not conventionally beautiful and calling it "chicken scratch" might not have been unfair. Looking at it and reading it now still moves me. Sometimes that is because of what was written (kind, loving words in a birthday card or note or letter) but even more mundane writing can have the same effect. The items with her printing less so than those in cursive. Cursive is more intricate and, again, more individual and personal. It has more of the feeling of creation than printing, imo.
It is sad when beautiful things become less common or die, all the more so when what replaces them is less or not at all beautiful.
Deb (January 8th, 2023)
I had a crush on a girl once because of her handwriting (it also helped that her perfume would end up on the pages sometimes). I know the handwriting of all my friends and identify strongly with them. But some of them print, some of them have terrible handwriting. But it is part of their identity in my mind .
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