Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 61 to 79 of 79

Thread: Any Point to Cursive?

  1. #61
    Senior Member manoeuver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Near Midwest, US
    Posts
    1,592
    Thanks
    1,225
    Thanked 1,078 Times in 554 Posts
    Rep Power
    15

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parsimonious View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Grad students are not customers. They pay money to be taught, and that money pays teachers and the school that provides the buildings and the library. Students are required to demonstrate that they have mastered the knowledge and a skill to be passed into a profession. For that matter, so are undergraduates in that everyone must write papers, take tests, speak in class.

    If a student is a customer, then they could just pay and get a degree.
    So, by that logic, if I pay for piano lessons but I never learn to play the piano, I am not a customer. I always figured that money had something to do with who is a customer.
    Close but I think meaningfully different. If your piano teacher issued a theoretically valuable credential and could dismiss you (without a refund) if you didn't perform well enough, the relationship would be a bit more nuanced than customer/vendor.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to manoeuver For This Useful Post:

    dneal (January 3rd, 2023)

  3. #62
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,625
    Thanks
    3,549
    Thanked 1,026 Times in 631 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    What if the student is faster/better at taking notes using the laptop than paper?

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
    It's an issue of focus, of paying attention. With a laptop, you have a screen in front of your face, and the keyboard and mouse...and your emails and the rest of the Internet.
    People with pens can doodle and write poetry to avoid the meeting, too. I've worked alongside some young engineers who worked faster and more efficiently via laptop note taking (much easier for them to edit, organize, file, and re-purpose at a later date) than they could with handwriting.

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Lloyd For This Useful Post:

    Chuck Naill (January 4th, 2023)

  5. #63
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,750
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by welch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    What if the student is faster/better at taking notes using the laptop than paper?

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
    It's an issue of focus, of paying attention. With a laptop, you have a screen in front of your face, and the keyboard and mouse...and your emails and the rest of the Internet.
    People with pens can doodle and write poetry to avoid the meeting, too. I've worked alongside some young engineers who worked faster and more efficiently via laptop note taking (much easier for them to edit, organize, file, and re-purpose at a later date) than they could with handwriting.

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
    Our conversation has morphed into education. I was reading this op-ed this morning about college success. One point to consider is that students see college as a pathway for success. They understand there are requirements and decide which college to attend. Those factors make colleges a business and the student the consumer/customer.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/03/o...smid=share-url
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Chuck Naill For This Useful Post:

    Bisquitlips (January 6th, 2023)

  7. #64
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,656
    Thanks
    2,026
    Thanked 2,188 Times in 1,418 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Thanks for the share, Chuck. Interesting article. Of course college students are partly in customer roles. It's not an exact analogy, but we know the degree to which it fits. The professors also know the pressures of having to deliver a product (experience) that has both quality and customer satisfaction involved. I don't think that there is much real debate about this. When the state takes over and makes attendance mandatory and children are involved, we get a different kind of dynamic.

  8. #65
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,656
    Thanks
    2,026
    Thanked 2,188 Times in 1,418 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    People with pens can doodle and write poetry to avoid the meeting, too.
    Um, were you spying on me???

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to TSherbs For This Useful Post:

    Brilliant Bill (January 4th, 2023), Chuck Naill (January 4th, 2023), Lloyd (January 4th, 2023)

  10. #66
    Senior Member Lloyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,625
    Thanks
    3,549
    Thanked 1,026 Times in 631 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    People with pens can doodle and write poetry to avoid the meeting, too.
    Um, were you spying on me???
    Were you trying to see how many words rhyme with "duck"?

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
    M: I came here for a good argument.
    A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
    M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn't.
    M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn't!

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Lloyd For This Useful Post:

    TSherbs (January 5th, 2023)

  12. #67
    Junior Member InesF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Location
    Woodquarter, Austria
    Posts
    14
    Thanks
    33
    Thanked 18 Times in 8 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    For me, it isn't a question of logic nor one of economy.

    If we (humans of this planet) are unable to see meaning in things and in activities that are not following efficiency and optimisation of economic value, what will be left? On the same type of argument, you may ask: why learning to play an instrument, why learning to handcraft something, why learning to cook for yourself, why churn butter, why ... you got the point.

    Not limited to handwriting or to using fountain pens and inks, in many different aspects of our life, I get the impression that "efficiency" is the new word for inquisition. We are scarifying long-term achievements of what we formerly called "culture" and what we claimed to be the difference between existing and living. We abandon culture for a vague promise of efficiency or for an advantage over our neighbours. Is an optimised life, in time and in cost, any better than a life with scope?

    And finally: No, there should not be a "must" for children to learn something. There should be a must for parents, for grandparents and even for neighbours and teachers to encourage the children having interest and curiosity in life so that they (the children) ask by themselves for being taught in handwriting, drawing, music, art, .... (I would feel more comfortable living in such a world). OK, I'm aware such would not happen, not in 1000 years. Sparking interest in non-economic things and activities by "soft" force, such as a mandatory basic course and an optional advanced course in school, at least, sounds justified.

    Yes, that's a subjective claim.

  13. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to InesF For This Useful Post:

    Chuck Naill (January 5th, 2023), Deb (January 5th, 2023), dneal (January 8th, 2023), Lithium466 (January 5th, 2023), manoeuver (January 5th, 2023), TSherbs (January 5th, 2023)

  14. #68
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Posts
    67
    Thanks
    190
    Thanked 63 Times in 29 Posts
    Rep Power
    2

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    As a non American (also, I'm old), I'm always surprised by such discussion about cursive. I write in cursive because that's the only way I know (that doesn't mean my handwriting is nice), that's what we were taught in school and what everybody used, no question asked. (I did learn to churn butter in school too! And had an accident when making the Christmas log when I mixed cream and chocolate for 10 seconds too many and had the mix start to granulate slightly...let's melt everything and restart!)

    The same was true at work and in many places, until I moved to Canada and "discovered" that I was literally the only one writing in cursive...and then that fountain pens were not "the norm" for people who have to write a lot, and quickly. Kind of an awakening, showing my age!

    I've always tried to work smart, not hard. I see many of my younger colleagues writing so slowly in print or whatever this is called. I see them struggling to get the meaning of an email when there is more than a few lines of text. I quickly understood that asking several questions in an email was only a way to get partial answers.
    On that I will join InesF's post above. We sacrificed many things on the autel of an optimized life, and diluted culture. On some aspects it feels like a waste.

  15. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Lithium466 For This Useful Post:

    Chuck Naill (January 5th, 2023), manoeuver (January 5th, 2023), TSherbs (January 5th, 2023), Zhivago (January 8th, 2023)

  16. #69
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,656
    Thanks
    2,026
    Thanked 2,188 Times in 1,418 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd View Post
    People with pens can doodle and write poetry to avoid the meeting, too.
    Um, were you spying on me???
    Were you trying to see how many words rhyme with "duck"?

    Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect™
    After the first, I got stuck.

    Arrested development.

  17. #70
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,750
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Thanks for the share, Chuck. Interesting article. Of course college students are partly in customer roles. It's not an exact analogy, but we know the degree to which it fits. The professors also know the pressures of having to deliver a product (experience) that has both quality and customer satisfaction involved. I don't think that there is much real debate about this. When the state takes over and makes attendance mandatory and children are involved, we get a different kind of dynamic.
    I once had an adjunct professor explain that in a junior or community college, her performance was evaluated by the students. This is in contrast to tenured professors. Also, when working students return to finish a degree, as I did, my cohort was more demanding. I once had an instructor ask me to meet and critique her. I explained that she was confusing in her delivery of information for which we were being tested. This conversation after the class had concluded and grades distributed. During one exam she suddenly noticed she had miswritten the question. That really pissed us off, but we recovered.

    What is being discussed finally is that a class can be populate with a wide range of demographics. Some students don't even have access to WIFI or a computer at all. Some have to work to pay their tuition, some can join Greek social groups. And finally weed out classes are being demonstrated against.

    Again, how one takes notes or delivers information to a business group should not be critiqued because it does not matter. It certainly is not a reason to be skilled in cursive...LOL!!
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Chuck Naill For This Useful Post:

    Lloyd (January 5th, 2023)

  19. #71
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2022
    Posts
    131
    Thanks
    31
    Thanked 32 Times in 23 Posts
    Rep Power
    2

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Havent read the article, so don't know if anything's said about this, but 'Any point to...'
    What does he propose we do for personal signatures? Are we to aspire to reach the higher technological ground as we rush into the future, & perhaps use charred sticks to scrawl our 'X' on the dotted line?

    I've got a related Christmas story that might go here, but it's too spooky for me to tell right now.

  20. #72
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    51
    Thanks
    16
    Thanked 55 Times in 31 Posts
    Rep Power
    4

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by ~JJ View Post
    Havent read the article, so don't know if anything's said about this, but 'Any point to...'
    What does he propose we do for personal signatures? Are we to aspire to reach the higher technological ground as we rush into the future, & perhaps use charred sticks to scrawl our 'X' on the dotted line?

    I've got a related Christmas story that might go here, but it's too spooky for me to tell right now.
    In the article, the author makes fun of illegible signatures, often by famous people. But, he misses the point. As noted earlier in this thread, a signature doesn't need to be legible. Mine certainly isn't. It's a way of verifying a person's concurrence. Any scrawl would suffice as long as it is consistent.

  21. The Following User Says Thank You to Parsimonious For This Useful Post:

    Jon Szanto (January 5th, 2023)

  22. #73
    Senior Member FredRydr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Carlisle, Pennsylvania USA
    Posts
    4,903
    Thanks
    1,395
    Thanked 6,379 Times in 2,500 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parsimonious View Post
    ...a signature doesn't need to be legible. Mine certainly isn't. It's a way of verifying a person's concurrence. Any scrawl would suffice as long as it is consistent.
    'Tis true.



    Maybe I should have posted in the Pens in Movies thread. That's Queequeg's signature, signing to sail aboard the Pequot, Captain Ahab's doomed whaling ship.
    Last edited by FredRydr; January 5th, 2023 at 03:14 PM.

  23. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to FredRydr For This Useful Post:

    catbert (January 6th, 2023), Robalone (January 8th, 2023), welch (January 6th, 2023)

  24. #74
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,656
    Thanks
    2,026
    Thanked 2,188 Times in 1,418 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Wait...he took a selfie of his signature??

    Ishmael had re-branded himself with one name, the Ocho-cinco of Nantucket.

  25. #75
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,703
    Thanks
    136
    Thanked 605 Times in 442 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parsimonious View Post
    As noted earlier in this thread, a signature doesn't need to be legible. Mine certainly isn't. It's a way of verifying a person's concurrence. Any scrawl would suffice as long as it is consistent.
    M-m-m, not exactly.
    If you were filing pleadings in the St. Joseph County Circuit Court in the 1980's the Judge required a legible signature. If he judged it was not, the document would be rejected and returned along with a much photocopied page advising that signatures must be legible, rejecting scrawls, and admonishing against the use of "Spencerian flourishes."

  26. #76
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6,750
    Thanks
    642
    Thanked 897 Times in 689 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    A physician I once called on had a signature that looked like a sideways tornado. At least the pharmacist knew it wasn't a forged prescription.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

  27. #77
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Pascagoula, MS
    Posts
    110
    Thanks
    58
    Thanked 21 Times in 16 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Parsimonious View Post
    As noted earlier in this thread, a signature doesn't need to be legible. Mine certainly isn't. It's a way of verifying a person's concurrence. Any scrawl would suffice as long as it is consistent.
    M-m-m, not exactly.
    If you were filing pleadings in the St. Joseph County Circuit Court in the 1980's the Judge required a legible signature. If he judged it was not, the document would be rejected and returned along with a much photocopied page advising that signatures must be legible, rejecting scrawls, and admonishing against the use of "Spencerian flourishes."
    It was that way in certain Courts in Mississippi for many years.

  28. #78
    Senior Member Zhivago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    2,743
    Thanks
    492
    Thanked 239 Times in 152 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by manoeuver View Post
    I read the article and it's midwit modern garbage.

    This McWhorter fella's vibes and arguments are aesthetically bereft (and I don't think he'd see anything wrong with that.)

    Cursive is important because it's beautiful when done well. If you don't value beauty it won't make any sense.

    (warning, cranky opinions follow)

    Creating beauty with handwriting requires dedication, practice, effort, and results in a measurable improvement of the practitioner.

    All these traditional values have come to be anathema to the Columbia Professor/NYT columnist type.
    They fail to understand the value of something then declare there is no value there.
    Thoroughly modern hubris. Dreck. Trash.

    If/when the power goes out this guy will be eaten within a week.
    A big +1 to all of the above.

    Cursive is beautiful and also, I think, more personal and individual than printed writing. My mother, who passed away about 6 years ago, had unique cursive handwriting. It was not conventionally beautiful and calling it "chicken scratch" might not have been unfair. Looking at it and reading it now still moves me. Sometimes that is because of what was written (kind, loving words in a birthday card or note or letter) but even more mundane writing can have the same effect. The items with her printing less so than those in cursive. Cursive is more intricate and, again, more individual and personal. It has more of the feeling of creation than printing, imo.

    It is sad when beautiful things become less common or die, all the more so when what replaces them is less or not at all beautiful.

  29. The Following User Says Thank You to Zhivago For This Useful Post:

    Deb (January 8th, 2023)

  30. #79
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,656
    Thanks
    2,026
    Thanked 2,188 Times in 1,418 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: Any Point to Cursive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhivago View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by manoeuver View Post
    I read the article and it's midwit modern garbage.

    This McWhorter fella's vibes and arguments are aesthetically bereft (and I don't think he'd see anything wrong with that.)

    Cursive is important because it's beautiful when done well. If you don't value beauty it won't make any sense.

    (warning, cranky opinions follow)

    Creating beauty with handwriting requires dedication, practice, effort, and results in a measurable improvement of the practitioner.

    All these traditional values have come to be anathema to the Columbia Professor/NYT columnist type.
    They fail to understand the value of something then declare there is no value there.
    Thoroughly modern hubris. Dreck. Trash.

    If/when the power goes out this guy will be eaten within a week.
    A big +1 to all of the above.

    Cursive is beautiful and also, I think, more personal and individual than printed writing. My mother, who passed away about 6 years ago, had unique cursive handwriting. It was not conventionally beautiful and calling it "chicken scratch" might not have been unfair. Looking at it and reading it now still moves me. Sometimes that is because of what was written (kind, loving words in a birthday card or note or letter) but even more mundane writing can have the same effect. The items with her printing less so than those in cursive. Cursive is more intricate and, again, more individual and personal. It has more of the feeling of creation than printing, imo.

    It is sad when beautiful things become less common or die, all the more so when what replaces them is less or not at all beautiful.
    I had a crush on a girl once because of her handwriting (it also helped that her perfume would end up on the pages sometimes). I know the handwriting of all my friends and identify strongly with them. But some of them print, some of them have terrible handwriting. But it is part of their identity in my mind .

  31. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TSherbs For This Useful Post:

    Lloyd (January 8th, 2023), Zhivago (January 8th, 2023)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •