That other place down…

[mana]

…and down again. Oooooooh well, such is life. I think I will go and play with my pens and inks. Or just go to bed early 😅

why don't you stay a little longer?
we enthusiasts of vintage Pelikan are somewhat underrepresented here…

Maybe I should start posting more here too… For example, I am waiting for the arrival of a mint/really good condition copy of ”Günther Wagner 1838-1938”, the 100th Anniversary book that wasn’t commercially available.

Planning on doing a mini-review of sorts, plus repro/scan some of the more interesting images (it should contain a series of photos that detail various stages of Pelikan fountain pen manufacturing). Just need to resort to google translate as I do not know German, might slow things a bit…

Anyhoo… wouldn’t be thst much of a chore to post about new purchases, etc. here too, and liven the Pelikan subforum a bit.

that would be great!
no problems with german here. will offer my help.

Thanks!

[PithyProlix]

I agree with many things you said in the quoted post (which I did not include in full). Not only that, you express many of the same reasons that I continue to actively participate in OG forums. However, my point was not what motivates me (or you), but what I see as trends in the younger, growing audience for fountain pens.

And I was totally on board with your great post until the last sentence, "The days of the fora are slowly coming to a close." (By the way, props for your proper Latin declension! ) I think forums [smirk] will continue alongside other types of social media platforms. Or perhaps there is future technology that will better enable in-depth written discussion better than Internet forums do now. I bet many of the r/fountainpens users, etc. who stick with the hobby will eventually end up at FPG and/or FPN (and/or other fp forums - e.g. the ones in China, France, Italy, etc.). They are easy enough to find - almost any Google search for fountain pen information has multiple results from FPN at or near the top and likely include links to valuable information from FPG as well).

I'll hazard a guess, Pithy, that you are not under 30 years of age. I don't think we have many active members here (on FPN) in that category. I'm willing to bet that, across the board, the active population of FPN users skews older, as well. We are not of the generation that walks around staring into their phone all day... because that is the device they use to interact with the world. It is no surprise that fountain pen users under 40, certainly under 30, are moving to platforms that closely mimic their other personal and informational interactions. Brief, shallow, quick.

Re: my age - you'd have to add another 20 years to that and you still wouldn't be there. (I remember growing up with a 1200 baud modem with a regular phone handset you had to place on top, just so we could get on BBSs, play text-based games like Adventure and Star Trek, and eventually get on usenet newsgroups. And we liked it! )

Those younger users will age. Let's hope that many of them will mature beyond the 'brief, shallow, quick' dopamine-driven superficiality that Facebook, etc. affords (and not just in the fountain pen world but everywhere!). If not, I'm afraid the future doesn't look too bright. And the science seems to be showing that those kinds of social media platforms are bad for our psychological health ...

BTW, I almost forgot: text-based Google Groups, a legacy of usenet newgroups, is also still going strong too. I'm a classical music recordings fan and, for the best discussion by far, Google Groups is where its at, for instance.

I think it is ultimately a loss, but the decline in number of users of the older platforms is pretty well documented at this point. FPN has 122k members, and r/fountainpens (Reddit) has 250k, on a site that has existed for a significantly shorter period. How many are active is always a question, but it is something that at least needs to be acknowledged.

I'll always take quality over quantity. But, yes, a greater volume of quality would be better.

I know what helps me, motivates me, educates me, and illuminates my life with fountain pens, and those experiences are found in primarily older forms of communication (including hand-written letters!). My interest is also being aware of how this is changing for a younger group of enthusiasts, and how old forms might match better with their contemporary behaviors and sensibilities.

It's encouraging to me that book reading (and listening) seems to still be going strong, at least according to this slightly dated Gallup poll (Rumors of the Demise of Books Greatly Exaggerated). And, according to this poll, young adults - 18-29 year-olds - are the heaviest readers (though the article does say that it is possibly due to required reading at colleges).

Thanks for the nice discussion. Now I have to stop procrastinating and clean up this train wreck which my desk is buried under ...

[es9]

It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed, that is just the de facto data stream.

My observation has been that the people who really know what they are doing don't have time to do videos, and/or know their weaknesses, so won't post a video. Some of the one's I've seen scare me.

Most of the remaining professional repair people have given up sharing information, if they ever did.

Do you know why that is, Ron? Reading back through old posts both here and at FPN, you really do notice a number of incredibly knowledgeable folks who just seem to have disappeared.

[724Seney]

It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed, that is just the de facto data stream.

My observation has been that the people who really know what they are doing don't have time to do videos, and/or know their weaknesses, so won't post a video. Some of the one's I've seen scare me.

Most of the remaining professional repair people have given up sharing information, if they ever did.

Do you know why that is, Ron? Reading back through old posts both here and at FPN, you really do notice a number of incredibly knowledgeable folks who just seem to have disappeared.

Back in post # 162 of this thread @farmboy provided the correct explanation.
He said: "It has been my observation that the people that really know what they are doing long ago got tired of being told they were wrong by people that have read about restoring a pen and watched a how-to video or two and simply left."
I recall some of those very off putting posts and was, quite frankly, horrified by the lack of respect shown to these masters. It was no wonder to me why they left.

[RobJohnson]

It doesn't matter that, for instance, many of the repair vids are bogus amateurs, and pens will be harmed, that is just the de facto data stream.

My observation has been that the people who really know what they are doing don't have time to do videos, and/or know their weaknesses, so won't post a video. Some of the one's I've seen scare me.

Most of the remaining professional repair people have given up sharing information, if they ever did.

Do you know why that is, Ron? Reading back through old posts both here and at FPN, you really do notice a number of incredibly knowledgeable folks who just seem to have disappeared.

Back in post # 162 of this thread @farmboy provided the correct explanation.
He said: "It has been my observation that the people that really know what they are doing long ago got tired of being told they were wrong by people that have read about restoring a pen and watched a how-to video or two and simply left."
I recall some of those very off putting posts and was, quite frankly, horrified by the lack of respect shown to these masters. It was no wonder to me why they left.

Exactly, if a dog is kicked every time it comes to say hello it will soon stop coming.

[dneal]

The opposite is probably true as well. People being told they can't do things because (insert litany of reasons...) might feel like the proverbial kicked dog as well.

We're talking about late 19th / early 20th century technology. A carved dowel tightly fitted to a tube, holding a shaped piece of metal. It works via 6th grade science concepts of capillary action and atmospheric equilibrium. It's hardly rocket science.

How many pens do you think the professionals ruined along the route of gaining experience?

Sure you shouldn't start at the bottom of the learning curve with your expensive limited edition, or pristine vintage fancy writing stick (which is still basically a dowel fitted into a tube). There are plenty of cheap, near ruined, essentially disposable pens out there. They're not holy relics.

If the hobby is one of encouragement and enthusiasm for these fancy writing sticks, perhaps encouragement and enthusiasm for repairing them should be part of it as well - with fair warning of the potential costs/downsides.

Rarely do we see "here's a better way". More commonly we see "you can't do that, send it to...". I cheer on the KBeezies, who ignored "you can't do that" and shared their journey, with the minor and major failures and triumphs.

[TSherbs]

Wim has announced another shut down tonight

[penwash]

The opposite is probably true as well. People being told they can't do things because (insert litany of reasons...) might feel like the proverbial kicked dog as well.

We're talking about late 19th / early 20th century technology. A carved dowel tightly fitted to a tube, holding a shaped piece of metal. It works via 6th grade science concepts of capillary action and atmospheric equilibrium. It's hardly rocket science.

How many pens do you think the professionals ruined along the route of gaining experience?

Sure you shouldn't start at the bottom of the learning curve with your expensive limited edition, or pristine vintage fancy writing stick (which is still basically a dowel fitted into a tube). There are plenty of cheap, near ruined, essentially disposable pens out there. They're not holy relics.

If the hobby is one of encouragement and enthusiasm for these fancy writing sticks, perhaps encouragement and enthusiasm for repairing them should be part of it as well - with fair warning of the potential costs/downsides.

Rarely do we see "here's a better way". More commonly we see "you can't do that, send it to...". I cheer on the KBeezies, who ignored "you can't do that" and shared their journey, with the minor and major failures and triumphs.

An ICE car is also a late 19th century technology. I mean, it's a few pressure chambers connected to gears and wheels, right?
But I recently saw a nicely made video where a proud owner of an Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spider (Veloce version) showcase the car, driving it around...

And I loved it. The video I mean, not to mention imagining if I own the car. There is something attractive about restoring vintage things that sparks imagination and enjoyment.

To me, vintage fountain pens are not just writing sticks or "a dowel fitted into a tube". They are much more than that.

If you keep your perspective, it is your right to do so, but you can't use that perspective to "get" why certain people love to restore these. Not just curious, but actually love it.

[dneal]

Thank you for allowing me my perspective, but I'm afraid you've misunderstood it.

It's the simplicity of the thing, which is indeed a carved dowel (feed) shoved in a barrel (reservoir) with a bit of metal (nib) to direct flow. The eyedropper is the fundamental principle. We've updated materials, and reservoir (mainly for filling), but we haven't added mass airflow sensors, or heated and cooled sections. Maybe one day we will get some sort of heads-up display that we could trace and improve our penmanship, but I don't see it any time soon.

There aren't really any analogies needed to describe such a simple thing. I appreciate it for what it is and does in that 6th-grade science project sense. I get that people love to restore them - and are not just curious. I think you're finding disagreement where there is none.

The point I am making is that it doesn't have to be limited to a few experts, which is often the refrain. "Don't do anything! Send it to (insert name)!" That's good advice in a great many cases. But similarly there are cases where people enjoy (and even come to love) repairing things. Making something work that didn't previously, or making it work better. They have to learn somehow, and are frequently rewarded with criticism for trying (or even asking).

[Ray-VIgo]

We're kind of getting afield into the realm of professionals who give up trying to help, but it is something that comes up, true. A very toxic handful of people can drive out a substantial number of other people. And it's especially bad if you have experienced people trying to help others, then a nasty know-it-all or two jumps in and starts arguing. The telltale sign is when you get someone who basically takes over the repair thread, arguing with anyone (and everyone). They'll post a large number of times and it's futile to argue with the person because the person won't let up. Most people aren't like that, but if you get a handful of those nasty, keyboard warrior types, the ride gets rough.

[dneal]

We're kind of getting afield into the realm of professionals who give up trying to help, but it is something that comes up, true. A very toxic handful of people can drive out a substantial number of other people. And it's especially bad if you have experienced people trying to help others, then a nasty know-it-all or two jumps in and starts arguing. The telltale sign is when you get someone who basically takes over the repair thread, arguing with anyone (and everyone). They'll post a large number of times and it's futile to argue with the person because the person won't let up. Most people aren't like that, but if you get a handful of those nasty, keyboard warrior types, the ride gets rough.

I hear about these threads, but can never seem to find one.

[Farmboy]

We're kind of getting afield into the realm of professionals who give up trying to help, but it is something that comes up, true. A very toxic handful of people can drive out a substantial number of other people. And it's especially bad if you have experienced people trying to help others, then a nasty know-it-all or two jumps in and starts arguing. The telltale sign is when you get someone who basically takes over the repair thread, arguing with anyone (and everyone). They'll post a large number of times and it's futile to argue with the person because the person won't let up. Most people aren't like that, but if you get a handful of those nasty, keyboard warrior types, the ride gets rough.

I hear about these threads, but can never seem to find one.

Most of it is emails and PMs.

[karmachanic]

We're kind of getting afield into the realm of professionals who give up trying to help, but it is something that comes up, true. A very toxic handful of people can drive out a substantial number of other people. And it's especially bad if you have experienced people trying to help others, then a nasty know-it-all or two jumps in and starts arguing. The telltale sign is when you get someone who basically takes over the repair thread, arguing with anyone (and everyone). They'll post a large number of times and it's futile to argue with the person because the person won't let up. Most people aren't like that, but if you get a handful of those nasty, keyboard warrior types, the ride gets rough.

I hear about these threads, but can never seem to find one.

Most of it is emails and PMs.

One is not required to respond to either. Don't feed them and they'll go away.

[bunnspecial]

We're kind of getting afield into the realm of professionals who give up trying to help, but it is something that comes up, true. A very toxic handful of people can drive out a substantial number of other people. And it's especially bad if you have experienced people trying to help others, then a nasty know-it-all or two jumps in and starts arguing. The telltale sign is when you get someone who basically takes over the repair thread, arguing with anyone (and everyone). They'll post a large number of times and it's futile to argue with the person because the person won't let up. Most people aren't like that, but if you get a handful of those nasty, keyboard warrior types, the ride gets rough.

I hear about these threads, but can never seem to find one.

Most of it is emails and PMs.

One is not required to respond to either. Don't feed them and they'll go away.

And you’re a fine one to talk about nasty PMs

[Ray-VIgo]

We're kind of getting afield into the realm of professionals who give up trying to help, but it is something that comes up, true. A very toxic handful of people can drive out a substantial number of other people. And it's especially bad if you have experienced people trying to help others, then a nasty know-it-all or two jumps in and starts arguing. The telltale sign is when you get someone who basically takes over the repair thread, arguing with anyone (and everyone). They'll post a large number of times and it's futile to argue with the person because the person won't let up. Most people aren't like that, but if you get a handful of those nasty, keyboard warrior types, the ride gets rough.

I hear about these threads, but can never seem to find one.

The one that particularly came to mind was the dispute involving the grandmia shellac snorkel repair that ultimately was closed.

[christof]

Just recently I got involved in a discussion on FPN that went strongly in the direction of "wanting to be right". Fortunately Rick Propas jumped in and I was able to get out just in time. But it did remind me why I put my posts there a few years ago.

[bunnspecial]

Just recently I got involved in a discussion on FPN that went strongly in the direction of "wanting to be right". Fortunately Rick Propas jumped in and I was able to get out just in time. But it did remind me why I put my posts there a few years ago.

I don't know very much about Pelikan history and don't actively collect them, but always appreciate the knowledgeable and informed post of you and others.

I have been collecting old/antique things for a while, though. It's inevitable that anomalies occur, and it it is on the modern collector to see if it can be explained as a factory original, period repair, or a modern switch. We see this a lot in American pocket watches. I love the weird, strange, and unexpected and after a while you do develop a bit of a "sense" about what could be original and what likely isn't. Some are easily explained from known practices-as an example it's known that employees of most companies were permitted to buy unfinished parts inexpensively and could assemble into their own watches. Some will have only slight changes from factory such as upjeweling or a different finish while others are over-the-top changes unlike anything otherwise seen. These "employee watches" can sometimes be difficult to spot, and the more subtle ones often are down to quality of workmanship to determine if they were made that way or a later modification. Some are more obvious.

In any case, though, is that I've seen in some of these Pelikan discussions that one particular person seems to find "factory" anomalies that could easily be explained by later repairs or part replacement. When it's the same person consistently turning them up and then getting defensive when questioned about them(such as piston seals or the like)...well I find it suspicious. I know a bit about Montblancs, and the person I'm thinking of has a 149 with a split ebonite feed on a pen that dates to about 10 years before that feed was known to be used. I questioned whether that could be a service replacement(knowing that MB will often update to the most current part when servicing a pen) as was rather nasty and belligerently told that was not possible as they had bought the pen new and seemed insulted that I'd done anything but blindly accept the originality of their pen. I still remain skeptical that the part would have appeared 10 years before it's been documented anywhere else(especially as MB considered it an improvement and it defies any common sense that they would have randomly installed it on a production pen and then waited 10 years before adopting it wholesale...).

That's just my observation, though.