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Thread: Can humanity be improved without religion?

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    Default Can humanity be improved without religion?

    This question was asked on another thread that was on a different topic. I declined to go further off-topic at that point in that thread, but the question did resonate with me, so I thought that I would give an answer in its own proper thread.

    So, Can humanity be improved without religion? Or, asked a different way, how can humanity find the values and motivation to direct itself toward being better persons? Or maybe even more bluntly, How does atheism have standards and a desire for betterment?

    My answer (quckly composed):

    I am sure that there are books and books about this written by very smart and learned persons. I have not read any of them. Nor did I just now go to any summary pages on the topic for a prompt. I am just going to give my response off the top of my head from what I am thinking this day, March 21, 2023.

    1) The biggest benefit that atheism (removing religion from the world) gives is that it is not based upon a lie. So the first benefit, I would suggest, is that the world without religions would be a world in which its elders and leaders do not lie to its followers and younger persons. This massive pratice of lying, from this point of view, is a massive pattern of psychological and intellectual abuse of the credulous. A world is better, I would argue, without that fundamental abusive relationship.

    2) Accepting that there is no god(s), no permanent values, no life after death, no spirits roaming the world and watching over us or influencing our behaviors, nothing but a life and then eternal extinction is a form of intellectual, psychological, and spiritual maturity. And the more mature that we ask ourselves and our culture to be, the better. Maturity is a form of growth, and we should all strive to reach this stage and promote it in our houses and our culture.

    3) This maturity comes from accepting that ALL our behaviors and decisions and ethics and guidelines are OUR RESPONSIBILITY (individuallly and collectively), and no one else's (no god's or spirit's). WE have to do the hard work of confronting our essential brief existence and construct ENTIRELY its purpose and meaning WITHOUT LYING TO OURSELVES about a purpose or meaning coming from a fictional spirit world. This is what parents, in their weakness, tells to children. This is not what a mature society should do with its citizenry.

    4) Some of this is based on my understanding (superficial) of existentialism, which I have a strong affinity for. Let me summarize, off the top of my head, what I can about existentialism and its core tenets in relation to this question:

    a) There is no God
    b) Life is suffering (full of struggle, full of pain, and brief)
    c) Hoping that God will change (b) leads to more anguish and suffering (dissillusionment)
    d) Suicide is unnacceptable (cowardice)
    e) Therefore, one must accept full responsibility for making/creating the meaning of one's existentence entirely from materials at hand and not from any supernatural realm.


    5) Asking the world to be this mature about owning full responsibility for its values, its decisions, its behaviors is one important step to allowing it to grow beyond its iron-age mythology and beliefs that have been a cowardly panacea for the anguish of asking the universe and the forces of the world "Why?" and getting NO ANSWER. But instead of having the courage to face the void of no reply (because there is no God), we have traditionally made up the spiritual authority to give us rules and to give us messages of succor to help us deal with this pain of aloneness in the universe (separated from a cosmic parent) as if we were children. If one's claim is that the world can never come to some basic agreements about values and ethics (of course we can; it has already been done) without an all powerful god to punish transgressors and reward the orthodox, then one simply wants us to remain in the mindset of a child lied to by its elders in an abusive and manipulative arrangement.


    -----These responses aren't an actual *plan* for how to run the planet, nor do I have the *answer* for what values should come first, second, third, etc. Many groups, many religions, many writers over the millenia have already done this. Of course we can do it without religion. Even the Humanist Society has already done this. It would just take mature courage. Who knows, it might even result, after the pain of dissilusionment, in a more real form of universal love. Because all we have is us, not an iota more.
    Last edited by TSherbs; March 21st, 2023 at 10:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Can you consistently love your neighbor as you love yourself and threat others as you would prefer, they treat you? Before you consider a response, first realize this extends beyond those that may live next door. What about @dneal? How do you choose to love him? What resources would you call upon which would allow you to develop into the sort of person that would do this naturally? Is there a power within you that would allow this to occur? Perhaps these are not your life goal?

    If you decided to have a better life than you currently enjoy, what would you do? Again, is there something within Ted? If there is, are you choosing to do it? Would you agree that if humanity suddenly began to treat others as they would want to be treated, the world would be a better place to live? It would stop the suffering, anguish, and suicide you mentioned. What if you had a helper, would that help you be the kind of person you would prefer to be?

    Jesus said his disciples would enjoy a rich abundant life. This love would guide our every action. Now, I realize you may not know one of those disciples. Or, you may have endured a bad experience with one, like me, for example.

    A classic, thinking person's exploration of what it means to search, find, and enjoy a life of communication with God, I recommend the C.S. Lewis book, Mere Christianity.

    And let's be honest, no science-based case has ever been developed to prove there is no god. And people who are seeking God are not wishful thinkers. They have something that urges them forward.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Chuck, you asked me to answer the question, "without any religions, how would humanity work on improving itself" or something close to that. I gave you my answer. I have trouble understanding how what you have written follows anything specific in what I wrote. You invited the discussion about a world without religions. But now in your first response to my answer, you put religion (Christianity) back in.

    Are we going to discuss a world without religion, or not? I am not *arguing* to prove that god doesn't exist (I am not interested in a debate on the existence of God). YOU asked the question about a world without religions, so I answered it. Your question ASSUMED that there were no religions (and gods)....

    The question that starts this thread is a "yes" or "no" answer, for starters. Maybe begin there, and explain why....

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    I quit believing in organized religion/Christian doctrine when I was about seven. Given the world I could see, hear, taste, and touch, it made no sense. Moreover, it seemed like the worst people had the most power in the churches I was forced to attend, treating the organization as a means to wield power and punish those they disliked, with a godly license.

    That realization improved my life in many ways: more curiosity and a thirst for learning, less fear and demonizing, a profound sense of freedom and independence, enhanced personal responsibility, a moral sense based on a real, finite existence, et many ceterae.

    Can't speak for humanity as a whole, but I'm better off without it.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Chip For This Useful Post:

    TSherbs (March 21st, 2023)

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    I still believed in Santa Claus at 7. My disbelief didn't come until I was about 20. And in my 30s, when I read Sartre, I found an intellectual approach to the universe (vast and indifferent to our tiny ineffectual specs of life) that empowered me.

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Camus wrote that all modern philosophy must first address the question of whether or not to kill oneself.

    What? How wild that was for me to read when all I had been raised on was biblical platitudes and the deeply engrained teaching that your life is not yours but God's (a form of usurping one's freedom of self-determination).

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Never could get existentialism, Camus, Sartre, and that sort of thing. It seemed self-centered in a way that I couldn't follow, since I think of myself as fairly uninteresting compared to what surrounds me: All lives, all dances, all is loud!

    That's from an African tribal song. I spent much of my time roaming the desert near home and observing. With poor sight (20/200) I got on my knees to watch ants, absorbed, until they crawled on me and bit. Tadpoles in silty puddles. Grasshoppers. Dogs panting on hot days. My pet desert tortoise, eating mom's garden plants. Spent lots of time with one cheek to the ground.

    When I finally got glasses, in fifth grade, I was amazed at actually seeing birds rather than flashes of movement. At the blue and white intricacies of far mountains. At the circulation of clouds and the slant and rush of thunderstorms. Given that sudden beauty, I didn't need gods of any sort.

    Playwright Lorraine Hansberry said: Most of my dream is outside myself. I like that. It takes the pressure off.

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    20/200 and no glasses? No wonder you turned to (and tuned to) your other senses.

    Have you ever read "A White Heron," by Sarah Orne Jewett? A short story with a young female protagonist that would have roamed the property with you.

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Chuck, you asked me to answer the question, "without any religions, how would humanity work on improving itself" or something close to that. I gave you my answer. I have trouble understanding how what you have written follows anything specific in what I wrote. You invited the discussion about a world without religions. But now in your first response to my answer, you put religion (Christianity) back in.

    Are we going to discuss a world without religion, or not? I am not *arguing* to prove that god doesn't exist (I am not interested in a debate on the existence of God). YOU asked the question about a world without religions, so I answered it. Your question ASSUMED that there were no religions (and gods)....

    The question that starts this thread is a "yes" or "no" answer, for starters. Maybe begin there, and explain why....
    Your post seemed to say you don't know how atheism motivates people. How has it motivated you?

    You wrote, "how can humanity find the values and motivation to direct itself toward being better persons? Or maybe even more bluntly, How does atheism have standards and a desire for betterment?" Not being an atheist, I cannot answer. I gave you the perspective of a disciple of Jesus and that's the only way I knew to respond. Also, I am not participating in order to convince you of something. Jesus said to change the way you think for the Kingdom of God is at hand. He didn't force or obligate anyone. Those that wanted to, followed.

    Jesus said that unless your righteousness exceeds the scribes and Pharisees, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Then he proceeds to explain that the true righteousness is not only what you do, but also what you are thinking of doing. It is like a student who has never cheated on a test until his environment changes, and they do. Do atheists have a similar statement of what it means to be right?

    You are in a better position to answer since you are an atheist. What would you propose? Here is your opportunity to demonstrate how living an atheistic life is superior and solves more human problems than religions. What can you propose that makes better people? Are you a better person as a result of being an atheist?

    I think I wrote this before; I had a vocal atheist English teacher in HS. He seemed motivated to challenge student's religious beliefs without offering them with a better way. If atheism's only tactic is to complain about what they are not, what value is derived? I am challenging you to go beyond your complaints and explain how your beliefs solve human suffering as you listed.
    Last edited by Chuck Naill; March 22nd, 2023 at 07:25 AM.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Chuck, my long post above is my answer to what I think is a better way. I'll boil it down even further: Atheism is a better approach because it does not premise itself upon a gigantic lie to its followers. There is no chance, then, for the fundamental lie to corrode all the other relationships between the authorities and the rest of society. Asking people to admit the truth of our existence is a fundamental step in treating each other with dignity and respect.

    I can't put it any clearer than this.

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip View Post

    Playwright Lorraine Hansberry said: Most of my dream is outside myself. I like that. It takes the pressure off.
    I forgot to add that I really like this Hansberry quote. Never saw it before.

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Asking people to admit the truth of our existence is a fundamental step in treating each other with dignity and respect.

    I can't put it any clearer than this.
    Can you provide from your own experience where atheism has resulted in people treating others with dignity and respect? Based in your posts on other threads, it seems you show only respect and dignity towards those you consider worthy of your respect and dignity, or those for whom you agree. I would call this more of a situation and subjective dignity and respect as you choose who to bestow it upon.

    I am fine with you thinking Jesus is a lie, because I am not here to push or persuade. I am more concerned that you have convinced yourself that it does not require faith to believe atheism is embodies truth.

    And, why did you start the post if you only wanted to hear from those who agree with you? Did we need to know what you thought and leave it at that?
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post

    And, why did you start the post if you only wanted to hear from those who agree with you? Did we need to know what you thought and leave it at that?
    What?

    I started the post to answer *your* question on the other thread. How many times to I have to say this?

    I really have trouble following the logical connections between the topics and your replies. YOU asked the question about a world without religions. You asked it, Chuck. Not me. I already know that you don't agree, and I don't mind hearing that you don't agree. I just thought that your question deserved an answer. So I gave it.

    If you want to argue against my answer, then go ahead. But as I said, I am not interested in a debate over whether "God" exists, nor was that what you invited with your question. If you want that debate, go ahead and start a thread on it for those to join who are interested in that.

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    You started the post to communicate your atheistic faith, Ted. My name or the context of the post I made in the other thread was not included in your OP. Also, you are choosing not to defend your faith or demonstrate how it is superior. I am taking this directly from your posts and replies.

    I am not debating if God exists. I am asking you to validate what you said, "So, Can humanity be improved without religion? Or, asked a different way, how can humanity find the values and motivation to direct itself toward being better persons? Or maybe even more bluntly, How does atheism have standards and a desire for betterment?" Since you are an atheist, I figured you could explain why you think we'd all be better off believing what you do and how it has benefitted your life.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Chuck, my long post above is my answer to what I think is a better way. I'll boil it down even further: Atheism is a better approach because it does not premise itself upon a gigantic lie to its followers. There is no chance, then, for the fundamental lie to corrode all the other relationships between the authorities and the rest of society. Asking people to admit the truth of our existence is a fundamental step in treating each other with dignity and respect.

    I can't put it any clearer than this.
    I still can't put it clearer than this.

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    If I said that being a disciple of Jesus would allow people to "admit the truth", that it would lead to us treating others with dignity and respect, wouldn't you want an example or my personal experiences? If instead of responding, I told you I couldn't make it any more clear, what would your response be? Surely what I am asking isn't that difficult for you to understand.
    “He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” Micah 6:8

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    If I said that being a disciple of Jesus would allow people to "admit the truth", that it would lead to us treating others with dignity and respect, wouldn't you want an example or my personal experiences? If instead of responding, I told you I couldn't make it any more clear, what would your response be? Surely what I am asking isn't that difficult for you to understand.
    Actually, it would be enough for me. I am not here to debate or even persuade.

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    20/200 and no glasses? No wonder you turned to (and tuned to) your other senses.

    Have you ever read "A White Heron," by Sarah Orne Jewett? A short story with a young female protagonist that would have roamed the property with you.
    Don't know the story– I'll look for it. Thanks.

    I didn't realize that my vision was so poor. But I was hopeless at sports: couldn't see the damn ball until it hit me. I also failed to read facial expressions at a distance, so I'd imagine people were mad at me or smiling when they weren't. When we moved, I got lost a few times walking home from school because I couldn't read the street signs. In class, I used to press on my eye or make a pinhole with my fist to focus. Failing that, I'd get up and sharpen my pencil and quickly memorize whatever was written on the blackboard.

    We had vision tests once a year, as a class, always in alphabetical order. By the time they got to the R's, I had the chart down pat. I could have passed blindfolded.

    At last, an observant teacher sent me to the school nurse for a vision test and she couldn't believe it. She asked if I'd hit my head or had eye infections, etc.

    One positive outcome was that I learned to read words as whole things, shapes, ideograms, rather than letter-by-letter. When I first was tested for reading speed, I got 1500 words per minute.

    Outside, I learned to stop at intervals and look back, so I'd know what my route looked like on return. Since I couldn't see birds, etc. I was absorbed in small things I could observe up close: bugs, lizards, tadpoles, plants. Good way to begin as a naturalist.

    I've never regretted that early handicap, given how it taught me to improvise and respond to actual circumstances.

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    1500 wds/min? Wow. Sometimes our challenges are our greatest teachers. Probably more often than "sometimes".

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    Default Re: Can humanity be improved without religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    1500 wds/min? Wow. Sometimes our challenges are our greatest teachers. Probably more often than "sometimes".
    I had to learn to slow down when reading for pleasure.

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