Gender and the law

[TSherbs]

It should be noted that I have taught and mentored trans students over the past ten years. Our school (like most schools in Maine) permits trans students to play on teams of the gender with which they identify. Some choose not to be on any teams at all, and like most of the rest of the population, couldn't make a team if they tried. Only those who appear to be transitioned well through the process (in other words, began some years earlier) even try to be on teams and be accepted (so this is only one or two students out of hundreds). It is much more important to us that we treat ALL (100%) of our trans students with dignity and respect and acceptance than it is that we guarrantee 100% of all the other athletes that they will never be beat out for a team positon by a trans student (like, say, whites used to feel about being beat out by black students for spots on the teams).

[724Seney]

I think that all of the tension around trans athletes stems from a lack of acceptance of trans persons as the gender in which they identify. People are born with all sorts of physiological advantages (and disadvantages) in comparison to the rest of the population, and we accept many of them as "natural" and "random." Our cultural understanding of trans-gendered identity is not fully accepted yet as "natural" and "random" enough to warrant simple inclusion in the "gender" of a person's choice for trans females to be universally accepted onto female teams (of the traditional classification). This acceptance is happening in places, but certain pockets and regions of culture are digging in their heels and fighting against the changes. That pushback is not atypical and should be expected. Some states are ahead of others in this, but I am confident that the acceptance will come more broadly over the next 10-20 years as more of the population has common interactions with trans persons and more people see that trans people aren't, say, "destroying sports" or "ruining scholarships". The same kinds of things were said about gay marriage: that it would "destroy the institution of marriage." That wasn't true when it was said, and it isn't true now.

The sports and locales that want to be more accepting of trans persons AND protect women's sports from the male advantage (debated) that higher levels of testosterone may give have been instituting maximum blood level measurments of testosterone to qualify on the women's side. I understand this desire to do both of these things, and I understand the decisions. However, some sports are beginning to institute required "transition" dates of as young as 12 years old in order to qualify as "female," regardless of how low one's testosterone might be. Obviously, this kind of transition ceiling age is the same as an all-out prohibition (in disguise). Besides, some states are now also making transition hormone treatment illegal for anyone under 18.

Society is struggling to figure this out, but I am confident that we will and that eventually what we will have is near universal acceptance of trans athletes with a requirement of some authenticated history of transition and perhaps also a maximum hormonal level limit. In the meantime, sports will neither be "destroyed" or "ruined."

This is pure Looney Tunes.
Society isn't trying to figure it out. It's just the handful of whackos like you who see fit to force an agenda which no society will ever embrace.

You want your 5' 2" wife, daughter or grand-daughter being forced to change her clothes next to a 6' 2" hulk with a semi-erect schlong between his legs that gets bigger and bigger as she removes each layer of her clothing?
Fine, have at it, pervert but don't force your fantasies on to the majority of women who want no part of it and are being forced to accept it. What ever happened to women's rights?
This is not how society changes.

[724Seney]

It should be noted that I have taught and mentored trans students over the past ten years. Our school (like most schools in Maine) permits trans students to play on teams of the gender with which they identify. Some choose not to be on any teams at all, and like most of the rest of the population, couldn't make a team if they tried. Only those who appear to be transitioned well through the process (in other words, began some years earlier) even try to be on teams and be accepted (so this is only one or two students out of hundreds). It is much more important to us that we treat ALL (100%) of our trans students with dignity and respect and acceptance than it is that we guarrantee 100% of all the other athletes that they will never be beat out for a team positon by a trans student (like, say, whites used to feel about being beat out by black students for spots on the teams).

Pity those poor students.
They deserved better............

[TSherbs]

What swimmers think.
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.co...ughing-matter/

*Some* swimmers think this. I am curious what you think of this piece that you cited. Do you agree with it? With all of it?

I once had a tennis player so good that we let him play on my varsity team when he was in sixth grade (the best player I ever coached--he went D1). A few other schools called this unfair, etc (only a team that lost to us ever said anything). My taking a 6th grader to the team did mean that someone else at the bottom of the ladder did not make the team because of his presence. Maybe this was "wrong," but I don't think so. He did not play #1 for me (that year), but he helped make my team stronger. He had no other team that he could play for, and there was no bodily injury risk because it was not a contact sport.

I also had a girl petition to play on the boys team (we had a girls team, and she played #1). We denied that petition because she already had a team that she could play on and her only reason was that the rest of her team wasn't good enough to challenge her (besides, she wasn't the best player in the league, either). I did do some extra work with her from time to time with some of my male players after practice.

[724Seney]

*Some* swimmers think this.

Prove it.
Please post a link..... or any other reference....... which comes from women who disagree.

[Chuck Naill]

Do you always stick to the topic, Ted?

No, but I don't know why you even posted it. What is your point with it, and why mention me?

Since you don’t, there was no reason for your post, Ted.

[dneal]

*Some* swimmers think this.

Prove it.
Please post a link..... or any other reference....... which comes from women who disagree.

Lit-crib nonsense. You would think the guy who supposedly taught Orwell would grasp the "some animals" connection.

White dude in blackface, perpetuating stereotypes? Racist.

White dude in woman-face, perpetuating stereotypes? Make him the face of "women's history month" and give him a sponsorship contract.

Some animals are more equal than others.

Kudos to the perverts who swindled the gullible woke morons, and hid the misogyny under the blanket of "trans".

[TSherbs]

Do you always stick to the topic, Ted?

No, but I don't know why you even posted it. What is your point with it, and why mention me?

Since you don’t, there was no reason for your post, Ted.

No "reason" for me to post??

You made a comment about *me*, Chuck, and attached a link (which I read). I am asking for an explanation. Are you refusing to give one?

[Chuck Naill]

What swimmers think.
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.co...ughing-matter/

*Some* swimmers think this. I am curious what you think of this piece that you cited. Do you agree with it? With all of it?

I once had a tennis player so good that we let him play on my varsity team when he was in sixth grade (the best player I ever coached--he went D1). A few other schools called this unfair, etc (only a team that lost to us ever said anything). My taking a 6th grader to the team did mean that someone else at the bottom of the ladder did not make the team because of his presence. Maybe this was "wrong," but I don't think so. He did not play #1 for me (that year), but he helped make my team stronger. He had no other team that he could play for, and there was no bodily injury risk because it was not a contact sport.

I also had a girl petition to play on the boys team (we had a girls team, and she played #1). We denied that petition because she already had a team that she could play on and her only reason was that the rest of her team wasn't good enough to challenge her (besides, she wasn't the best player in the league, either). I did do some extra work with her from time to time with some of my male players after practice.

I’m not a part of the competitive swimming community. It’s important to hear from their perspective, Ted. It’s more important than my or your anecdotal in the field experiences .

[Chuck Naill]

Do you always stick to the topic, Ted?

No, but I don't know why you even posted it. What is your point with it, and why mention me?

Since you don’t, there was no reason for your post, Ted.

No "reason" for me to post??

You made a comment about *me*, Chuck, and attached a link (which I read). I am asking for an explanation. Are you refusing to give one?

You have repeatedly refused to respond to @dneal’s question, Ted.

[Chuck Naill]

Perhaps the member with no children can respond with their callous pontifications.

[dneal]

Calling them "pontifications" is quite generous.

[Chuck Naill]

Lol!!

[724Seney]

*Some* swimmers think this.

Prove it.
Please post a link..... or any other reference....... which comes from women who disagree.

Lit-crib nonsense. You would think the guy who supposedly taught Orwell would grasp the "some animals" connection.

White dude in blackface, perpetuating stereotypes? Racist.

White dude in woman-face, perpetuating stereotypes? Make him the face of "women's history month" and give him a sponsorship contract.

Some animals are more equal than others.

Kudos to the perverts who swindled the gullible woke morons, and hid the misogyny under the blanket of "trans".

This is SO incredibly "spot on."

[TSherbs]

I've already explained about dneal. It has nothing to do with his "question."

Nevermind, Chuck. I see that you are in some sort of game here too. For some reason you think that I should be explaining or defending the odd behavior of the Dalai Llama, a comment apropos of nothing here (I am not interested in doing either). Like some other posts now on this thread, it appears to be simply meant as some sort of rude trolling. When I have had issues with you, Chuck, like now, I put them plainly to you and very directly. I don't know what to think about your brain and your way of connecting things except to say that it is strange, and sometimes just meanly petty. You've been trying to high five dneal on this "question" thing for months now, when all I keep saying is that I won't be baited into these arguments anymore, no matter how much you/he try to twist my refusal to get sucked into a mud-wrestling match.

dneal and seney just want to trash threads, especially if I start them, but you have actually mostly been interested in some conversation. But then you started proselytizing for Jesus on more than one thread, and I objected to it, and then you started taking pot-shots at me and now this one also today. When I ask you to elaborate on these topics, you dodge. I've been trying, but the actual conversation is minimal, and now negative.

[724Seney]

I've already explained about dneal. It has nothing to do with his "question."

Nevermind, Chuck. I see that you are in some sort of game here too. For some reason you think that I should be explaining or defending the odd behavior of the Dalai Llama, a comment apropos of nothing here (I am not interested in doing either). Like some other posts now on this thread, it appears to be simply meant as some sort of rude trolling. When I have had issues with you, Chuck, like now, I put them plainly to you and very directly. I don't know what to think about your brain and your way of connecting things except to say that it is strange, and sometimes just meanly petty. You've been trying to high five dneal on this "question" thing for months now, when all I keep saying is that I won't be baited into these arguments anymore, no matter how much you/he try to twist my refusal to get sucked into a mud-wrestling match.

dneal and seney just want to trash threads, especially if I start them, but you have actually mostly been interested in some conversation. But then you started proselytizing for Jesus on more than one thread, and I objected to it, and then you started taking pot-shots at me and now this one also today. When I ask you to elaborate on these topics, you dodge. I've been trying, but the actual conversation is minimal, and now negative.

Reading this sad tale of woe made me remember that classic old Buffalo Springfield tune "For What It's Worth." You know the lyrics, I'm sure........"Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep"

One small correction which, hopefully, won't add to your already excessively paranoid delusions TSherbs. dneal and I don't want to trash your threads. ( "It starts when you're always afraid. Step out of line, the men come and take you away" )

We want to trash the trash in your threads. And, there seems to be an unending supply.

[Chuck Naill]

I don’t high five anyone, Ted. I’m speaking directly at you. You don’t support the unborn, cisgirls, or little children.

[dneal]

I've already explained about dneal. It has nothing to do with his "question."

Nevermind, Chuck. I see that you are in some sort of game here too. For some reason you think that I should be explaining or defending the odd behavior of the Dalai Llama, a comment apropos of nothing here (I am not interested in doing either). Like some other posts now on this thread, it appears to be simply meant as some sort of rude trolling. When I have had issues with you, Chuck, like now, I put them plainly to you and very directly. I don't know what to think about your brain and your way of connecting things except to say that it is strange, and sometimes just meanly petty. You've been trying to high five dneal on this "question" thing for months now, when all I keep saying is that I won't be baited into these arguments anymore, no matter how much you/he try to twist my refusal to get sucked into a mud-wrestling match.

dneal and seney just want to trash threads, especially if I start them, but you have actually mostly been interested in some conversation. But then you started proselytizing for Jesus on more than one thread, and I objected to it, and then you started taking pot-shots at me and now this one also today. When I ask you to elaborate on these topics, you dodge. I've been trying, but the actual conversation is minimal, and now negative.

Herr Forumsscheisser accuses others of trashing threads.

Another example of lack of self awareness. Ignoring unpleasant realities seems to come naturally.

How does this keep happening to you, I wonder…. Is there some correlation we can come up with? Some commonality yet to be identified? Some inference to draw?

Seriously, consider jar’s responses to your “word salad” posts. Another poster taking pot shots? Or is there possibly a shortcoming on your end that prevents discussion?

[Chuck Naill]

The @dneal question is relevant, Ted.

[dneal]

34 year old “Sophie Rebecca” was accepted to the Royal Academy for Dance.

“Gender reality”, TSherbs called it.

A 34 year old man said “I wanna be a ballerina”.

Woke morons and new gender realities said “okey dokey”

You should see the video. Madness.