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Thread: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post

    I don’t know how you would teach a lesson from the Bible that wouldn’t endorse or promote the faith seeing as that is what the whole book is designed to do.
    I have done this without endorsement dozens and dozens of times. I have reviewed the first three chapters of Genesis probably 20 times over the years, never once endorsing Judaism or Christianity as a faith. In the same way, I have reviewed (taught) from the Communist Manifesto without endorsing or promoting the ideas. Just because the former includes the character of a serpent does not mean that sharing the story is an endorsement of the sayings of the serpent.


    Do you really want to tell me that the real motive behind this isn’t to somehow get lessons in the public schoolthat endorse, support, or promote tenets of Christianity? Especially considering that lessons from other religions’ texts are not being required?
    The Oklahoma superintendent clearly wants to do as you say. I am making comments on how the law matters even beyond that kind of case. Teachers have had to make these kinds of decisions for decades regardless of what their superintendent has been saying.


    We both know the “religious right” tries like crazy to get Christianity in the public schools, but would protest like crazy if any other religion tried the same.
    Yes. But I was trying to make a broader comment. The law is meant to protect the citizens from coercion toward a state religion, and this protection has been extended to students (no state-funded coercion at that level, either). Teachers, of course, are protected also (regardless of their personal faiths).

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Could you please point out the "endorsement clause" of the FA?
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion“
    Now we can agree that neither “separation of church and state “ nor “endorsement” are contained in the Constitution.


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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post

    I don’t know how you would teach a lesson from the Bible that wouldn’t endorse or promote the faith seeing as that is what the whole book is designed to do....
    Here is another example, from a novel that I used to teach to 10th graders (Cat's Cradle, by Kurt Vonnegut Jr.) Here are the opening lines of the novel:
    Call me Jonah. My parents did, or nearly did. They called me John.

    Jonah—John—if I had been a Sam, I would have been a Jonah still—not because I have been unlucky for others, but because somebody or something has compelled me to be certain places at certain times, without fail. Conveyances and motives, both conventional and bizarre, have been provided. And, according to plan, at each appointed second, at each appointed place this Jonah was there.
    I do not recall that EVERY time I taught the book that I would review the Biblical story of Jonah (hand out the relevant chapters of the book of Jonah or perhaps just read it aloud), but I did so frequently because this was the opening symbolic and structural motif of the story: a tale involving fate/destiny/compelling force/God what have you and the central character's narrative journey/quest. I could cover the Biblical tale of Jonah, God, and the great fish without ever stating or even suggesting that I believed in any such literal historical event nor whether or not I believed in this version of "God" nor any other version of deity or religion. The presentation of the background material need only be prefaced by, "To better understand the author's reference to a 'Jonah' and the opening motif of the novel, here are a few chapters of a book of the Hebrew Bible (Christians: Old Testament) called Jonah. Let's look for connections between this ancient tale and the comments our narrator 'John/Jonah' makes on the first page."

    edited to add: Sometimes I would also read aloud the opening of Moby-Dick, for further echoing of the motif....
    Last edited by TSherbs; July 1st, 2024 at 11:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Oklahoma superintendent's actual "memorandum": https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...-in-curriculum

    text:
    SUBJECT: Immediate Implementation of Foundational Texts in Curriculum

    Effective immediately,all Oklahoma schools are required to incorporate the Bible, which includes the Ten Commandments, as an instructional support into the curriculum across specified grade levels, e.g,grades 5 through 12. This directive is in alignment with the educational standards approved on or about May 2019, with which all districts must comply. The Bible is one of the most historically significant books and a cornerstone of Western civilization, along with the Ten Commandments. They will be referenced as an appropriate study of history, civilization, ethics, comparative religion, or the like, as well as for their substantial influence on our nation’s founders and the foundational principles of our Constitution. This is not merely an educational directive but a crucial step in ensuring our students grasp the core values and historical context of our country. Additionally, the State Department of Education may supply teaching materials for the Bible, as permissible to ensure uniformity in delivery. Adherence to this mandate is compulsory. Further instructions for monitoring and reporting on this implementation for the 2024/25 school year will be forthcoming, Immediate and strict compliance is expected.
    I think you can see that his news conference contained more hyperbole and inflammatory language than this memo. "Instructional support" is a vague and watered down phrase for curricular significance, and this clearly does not say "every classroom" nor does it say that a copy of the Bible will be in every classroom. This also states that the distribution of materials will be conducted "as permissible," which of course is the crux of the matter. We will find out, I suppose, just how far the OK Dept of Education actually tries to push this. "Permissible" is the correct term.
    Last edited by TSherbs; July 1st, 2024 at 12:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    After 6 months away from these threads, I thought I'd take a look again. Although most of them still seem mired in ad hominem exchanges between members, this question and thread seems promising and I am interested in the topic.
    Well, you were not missed. It has been much more enjoyable here without your disingenuous BS and foul, offensive mouth.
    Truth be told, you ran away because both your candidate and your ideology were crashing & burning. That's all a done deal now, everyone of your stupid, boorish opinions and posts have been completely dismantled.
    Tough luck Teddy but your track record as a loser goes back decades and remains intact.

    The OP of this thread is a like minded lightweight by the name of Warbler.
    Why don't the two of you do the rest of us a favor and go someplace else? Life here was so nice without you, if you ran away again...... and this time took him...... it would be even better.
    @ 724Seney: Why are you being so unpleasant? This is the kind of behavior that drives people of good will away from this forum. As I'm sure you know, I'm politically conservative, both socially and fiscally, and tend to disagree with many if not most of the ideas of the people you are attacking, but this kind of gratuitous vitriol is really uncalled for.
    Hmmm. I wonder what this button does...

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to calamus For This Useful Post:

    Warbler (July 2nd, 2024)

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by calamus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    After 6 months away from these threads, I thought I'd take a look again. Although most of them still seem mired in ad hominem exchanges between members, this question and thread seems promising and I am interested in the topic.
    Well, you were not missed. It has been much more enjoyable here without your disingenuous BS and foul, offensive mouth.
    Truth be told, you ran away because both your candidate and your ideology were crashing & burning. That's all a done deal now, everyone of your stupid, boorish opinions and posts have been completely dismantled.
    Tough luck Teddy but your track record as a loser goes back decades and remains intact.

    The OP of this thread is a like minded lightweight by the name of Warbler.
    Why don't the two of you do the rest of us a favor and go someplace else? Life here was so nice without you, if you ran away again...... and this time took him...... it would be even better.
    @ 724Seney: Why are you being so unpleasant? This is the kind of behavior that drives people of good will away from this forum. As I'm sure you know, I'm politically conservative, both socially and fiscally, and tend to disagree with many if not most of the ideas of the people you are attacking, but this kind of gratuitous vitriol is really uncalled for.
    @calamus: Thanks for your question. It is a fair one for you to ask; however, I find your editorial comment to be likewise gratuitous. This especially since it was made without the information you were seeking.
    There is good reason and I am happy to discuss it with you.
    Delete the offensive comments and PM me if you are interested in better understanding. Otherwise, welcome to a "Club" you see fit to condemn.
    Last edited by 724Seney; July 2nd, 2024 at 03:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    The larger context for this case, of course, is the recent rulings from the US SC allowing voucher program monies to go to religious schools, and the fact that the current SC conservative majority has appeared favorable to opening the public sphere to more religious practices. Despite (or because of?) recent declines in faith practices among the general population, religious conservatism has been making an effort to reclaim political power (or at least in certain districts and states). This guy Walters is an elected official, and my guess is that he is thinking also of elections in the future.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Oklahoma superintendent's actual "memorandum": https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...-in-curriculum

    text:
    SUBJECT: Immediate Implementation of Foundational Texts in Curriculum

    Effective immediately,all Oklahoma schools are required to incorporate the Bible, which includes the Ten Commandments, as an instructional support into the curriculum across specified grade levels, e.g,grades 5 through 12. This directive is in alignment with the educational standards approved on or about May 2019, with which all districts must comply. The Bible is one of the most historically significant books and a cornerstone of Western civilization, along with the Ten Commandments. They will be referenced as an appropriate study of history, civilization, ethics, comparative religion, or the like, as well as for their substantial influence on our nation’s founders and the foundational principles of our Constitution. This is not merely an educational directive but a crucial step in ensuring our students grasp the core values and historical context of our country. Additionally, the State Department of Education may supply teaching materials for the Bible, as permissible to ensure uniformity in delivery. Adherence to this mandate is compulsory. Further instructions for monitoring and reporting on this implementation for the 2024/25 school year will be forthcoming, Immediate and strict compliance is expected.
    I think you can see that his news conference contained more hyperbole and inflammatory language than this memo. "Instructional support" is a vague and watered down phrase for curricular significance, and this clearly does not say "every classroom" nor does it say that a copy of the Bible will be in every classroom. This also states that the distribution of materials will be conducted "as permissible," which of course is the crux of the matter. We will find out, I suppose, just how far the OK Dept of Education actually tries to push this. "Permissible" is the correct term.
    “Effective immediately,all Oklahoma schools are required to incorporate the Bible

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I have done this without endorsement dozens and dozens of times. I have reviewed the first three chapters of Genesis probably 20 times over the years, never once endorsing Judaism or Christianity as a faith. In the same way, I have reviewed (taught) from the Communist Manifesto without endorsing or promoting the ideas. Just because the former includes the character of a serpent does not mean that sharing the story is an endorsement of the sayings of the serpent
    why would you be teaching about the first three chapters of Genesis in public school?

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    Here is another example, from a novel that I used to teach to 10th graders (Cat's Cradle, by Kurt Vonnegut Jr.) Here are the opening lines of the novel:
    Call me Jonah. My parents did, or nearly did. They called me John.

    Jonah—John—if I had been a Sam, I would have been a Jonah still—not because I have been unlucky for others, but because somebody or something has compelled me to be certain places at certain times, without fail. Conveyances and motives, both conventional and bizarre, have been provided. And, according to plan, at each appointed second, at each appointed place this Jonah was there.
    I do not recall that EVERY time I taught the book that I would review the Biblical story of Jonah (hand out the relevant chapters of the book of Jonah or perhaps just read it aloud), but I did so frequently because this was the opening symbolic and structural motif of the story: a tale involving fate/destiny/compelling force/God what have you and the central character's narrative journey/quest. I could cover the Biblical tale of Jonah, God, and the great fish without ever stating or even suggesting that I believed in any such literal historical event nor whether or not I believed in this version of "God" nor any other version of deity or religion. The presentation of the background material need only be prefaced by, "To better understand the author's reference to a 'Jonah' and the opening motif of the novel, here are a few chapters of a book of the Hebrew Bible (Christians: Old Testament) called Jonah. Let's look for connections between this ancient tale and the comments our narrator 'John/Jonah' makes on the first page."

    edited to add: Sometimes I would also read aloud the opening of Moby-Dick, for further echoing of the motif....
    Maybe you have a point. Maybe, if done extremely carefully, the Bible can be taught without endorsing Christianity. (I fear you are opening Pandora’s box) But still to require the Bible and not other religions’s texts is wrong.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    text:
    SUBJECT: Immediate Implementation of Foundational Texts in Curriculum

    Effective immediately,all Oklahoma schools are required to incorporate the Bible, which includes the Ten Commandments, as an instructional support into the curriculum across specified grade levels, e.g,grades 5 through 12.


    “Effective immediately,all Oklahoma schools are required to incorporate the Bible
    Yes, that is the first half of the sentence that I quoted above. But, you have for some reason left off the second half of that sentence: the part that makes the qualification that I was noting.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    text:
    SUBJECT: Immediate Implementation of Foundational Texts in Curriculum

    Effective immediately,all Oklahoma schools are required to incorporate the Bible, which includes the Ten Commandments, as an instructional support into the curriculum across specified grade levels, e.g,grades 5 through 12.


    “Effective immediately,all Oklahoma schools are required to incorporate the Bible
    Yes, that is the first half of the sentence that I quoted above. But, you have for some reason left off the second half of that sentence: the part that makes the qualification that I was noting.
    I was highlighting the important part.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I have done this without endorsement dozens and dozens of times. I have reviewed the first three chapters of Genesis probably 20 times over the years, never once endorsing Judaism or Christianity as a faith. In the same way, I have reviewed (taught) from the Communist Manifesto without endorsing or promoting the ideas. Just because the former includes the character of a serpent does not mean that sharing the story is an endorsement of the sayings of the serpent
    why would you be teaching about the first three chapters of Genesis in public school?
    Any number of literary works that assume the reader is familiar with the Eden tale. A notable instance was when I would teach "Oryx and Crake," by Margaret Atwood (seniors).

    Are you not familiar with how commonly Western authors rely upon readers to be familiar with Biblical figures and tales?

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    I once taught Heinlein's "Job: A Comedy of Justice." We started the unit by reading the Book of Job. Make sense?

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I have done this without endorsement dozens and dozens of times. I have reviewed the first three chapters of Genesis probably 20 times over the years, never once endorsing Judaism or Christianity as a faith. In the same way, I have reviewed (taught) from the Communist Manifesto without endorsing or promoting the ideas. Just because the former includes the character of a serpent does not mean that sharing the story is an endorsement of the sayings of the serpent
    why would you be teaching about the first three chapters of Genesis in public school?
    Any number of literary works that assume the reader is familiar with the Eden tale. A notable instance was when I would teach "Oryx and Crake," by Margaret Atwood (seniors).

    Are you not familiar with how commonly Western authors rely upon readers to be familiar with Biblical figures and tales?
    perhaps you have a point. I didn't need public school teachers to inform me on Biblical stories thanks to Sunday School, but some kids might know absolutely nothing of Biblical stories.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    I began teaching in the early 1980s. Biblical familiarity among my students fell sharply over the next 40 years where I taught (New England).

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Sunday School and Church made me very familiar with the Bible.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    I think we are seeing real-time examples of the "chattering classes".
    "A truth does not mind being questioned. A lie does not like being challenged."

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    " I think the separation of church and state forbids the Bible in public schools. There is no way to bring the Bible into public schools without bringing the Christian religion into public schools. Also to require the study of the Bible and not the other holy texts of thw world = endorsement."

    "What I meant was that the separation of church and state forbids the teaching of the Bible."

    "I don’t know how you would teach a lesson from the Bible that wouldn’t endorse or promote the faith seeing as that is what the whole book is designed to do."

    "Maybe, if done extremely carefully, the Bible can be taught without endorsing Christianity. (I fear you are opening Pandora’s box) But still to require the Bible and not other religions’s texts is wrong"

    It appears that you either don't believe the clear statement of Justice Clark, or don't understand them and the current state of the law.

    Beyond that, TSherbs has told you how he taught portions of the Bible without running afoul of the Constitution or violating his own personal beliefs. TSherbs is not a "right wing Christian", having posted that anyone who believes in God is lying, and perverted. His characterized religion as "jealous and wrathful and ignorant monotheistic belief." TSherbs claimed the Speaker Johnson advocated for a Biblical republic, despite the video clearly demonstrating he said "Constitutional republic." All of which is to say to you that TSherbs is clearly not one to teach the Bible with the goal of proselytising, or indoctrinating students. If you credit his examples TS shows it can be done in a number of connections.

    Within the legal limits the Bible is allowed in public schools. It can be used in lessons, either in combination with (comparative religions) or alone. And it can be done to demonstrate its historical and literary relevance. It's not wrong. Your view of what is legal and what is possible is.




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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post

    Here is another example, from a novel that I used to teach to 10th graders (Cat's Cradle, by Kurt Vonnegut Jr.) Here are the opening lines of the novel:
    Call me Jonah. My parents did, or nearly did. They called me John.

    Jonah—John—if I had been a Sam, I would have been a Jonah still—not because I have been unlucky for others, but because somebody or something has compelled me to be certain places at certain times, without fail. Conveyances and motives, both conventional and bizarre, have been provided. And, according to plan, at each appointed second, at each appointed place this Jonah was there.
    I do not recall that EVERY time I taught the book that I would review the Biblical story of Jonah (hand out the relevant chapters of the book of Jonah or perhaps just read it aloud), but I did so frequently because this was the opening symbolic and structural motif of the story: a tale involving fate/destiny/compelling force/God what have you and the central character's narrative journey/quest. I could cover the Biblical tale of Jonah, God, and the great fish without ever stating or even suggesting that I believed in any such literal historical event nor whether or not I believed in this version of "God" nor any other version of deity or religion. The presentation of the background material need only be prefaced by, "To better understand the author's reference to a 'Jonah' and the opening motif of the novel, here are a few chapters of a book of the Hebrew Bible (Christians: Old Testament) called Jonah. Let's look for connections between this ancient tale and the comments our narrator 'John/Jonah' makes on the first page."

    edited to add: Sometimes I would also read aloud the opening of Moby-Dick, for further echoing of the motif....
    Maybe you have a point. Maybe, if done extremely carefully, the Bible can be taught without endorsing Christianity. (I fear you are opening Pandora’s box) But still to require the Bible and not other religions’s texts is wrong.
    What I said here, stands. It true what I said prior contradicts this, but maybe Tsherbs is changing my mind a little.

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