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Thread: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state.

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    Default Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools has not heard of separation of church and state.

    https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/27/us/ok...lum/index.html

    Apparently the superintendent of Oklahoma has never heard of the concept of separation of church and state and all the US Supreme Court rulings against the kind of thing he is doing. I mean how would he like it if teachers who are Christian were forced to teach a lesson from the Koran? Just what does he think*he's*doing? This is obviously going to be ruled unconstitutional. Public school teachers should not be forced to teach religious lessons nor should public school students be forced to listen to them. You want you kid to learn lessons from the Bible, send them to church.
    Last edited by Warbler; July 1st, 2024 at 08:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Agree or disagree with the following:
    “It might well be said that one’s education is not complete without a study of comparative religion or the history of religion and its relationship to the advancement of civilization. It certainly may be said that the Bible is worthy of study for its literary and historic qualities. Nothing we have said here indicates that such study of the Bible or of religion, when presented objectively as part of a secular program of education, may not be effected consistently with the First Amendment.”


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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    It that is the case, the superintendent should required lessons from various religious books, not just the Bible. Requiring lessons from just the Bible, the motive clear, shoving his religion down everyone's throats.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Compare and contrast:

    “Nothing we have said here indicates that such study of the Bible or of religion, when presented objectively as part of a secular program of education, may not be effected consistently with the First Amendment.”

    and

    “The Bible is an indispensable historical and cultural touchstone…. Without basic knowledge of it, Oklahoma students are unable to properly contextualize the foundation of our nation. This is not merely an educational directive but a crucial step in ensuring our students grasp the core values and historical context of our country.”




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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    That reasoning smacks of an excuse to get the Christian religion in public schools and teaching from one religion's holy book and not the others smacks of endorsement. This will be ruled unconstitutional, just school prayer and ten commandments being posted in the classroom and the rest. How can you justify a non christian teacher, say an atheist or a Muslim being forced to teach lessons from the bible in public school? What about the non Christian kids who will be forced to listen to such lessons? What if we were talking about public school teachers being forced to teach lessons from the Koran or the Gita or the book of Mormon? Also which version of the bible will they teach? Which translation? There are differences between the Protestant Bible and the Catholic Bible. There multiple books in the Catholic Bible that don't appear in the Protestant Bible. There are also slight differences between translations like the KJV and modern translations, because they were translated from different Greek sources? So which bible? Who decides?

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    So to be clear, knowing that the study of the Bible can be taught in public schools consistent with the First Amendment, where would you draw your line?

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    After 6 months away from these threads, I thought I'd take a look again. Although most of them still seem mired in ad hominem exchanges between members, this question and thread seems promising and I am interested in the topic.

    I also have experience in dealing with this topic in school and with unhappy parents on both sides of the debate. I even had a religious parent once opt their child out of reading a book (which we permitted) merely because the minister in the story (fiction) was abusive.

    Anyway, the line for me is clear: Any in-depth study of the tenets or texts of any religion in a US public school should be limited to upper level electives with no graduation requirement attached.

    Other references and coverage of the existence of religious believers and their motives and behaviors and actions can be covered in relevant history, civics, literature, and similar courses (For example, I had to say a few things about Islam--but not much--when I had students read The Autobiography of Malcolm-X). All efforts in required courses, however, should be made to avoid the endorsement and even the appearance of endorsement (which overlaps with "establishment") of any and all religious beliefs. In the example above, I made it quite clear that by explaining the importance of Mecca (and the Hajj) to the non-Muslims in my class that I was not endorsing Islam (and certainly not the Nation of Islam in America). I simply had to help the students understand why Malcolm was even desiring to go there and where it was (we can't assume that high school students know their geography well, either). I even showed images of the Kaaba. Kids like pictures.

    The most objectionable part of this man's statement was that a specific religious texts would be required to be present in every classroom (that seems absurd) and be required to be taught from (that seems illegal in America). Saying that Christianity has been important to some aspects of the lives of some Americans is not concerning at all (nor inaccurate). But this gentleman went much, much farther than that.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Another example to help clarify my position: when teaching The Autobiography of Ben Franklin (to 11th graders), I often would have to explain what a Quaker was/is because Franklin would refer to them and assume that the reader understood the reference (not true for my students). I clearly can explain this reference to support an understanding of the book and also make clear that I am not endorsing or promulgating the ideas or tenets of Quaker beliefs.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    After 6 months away from these threads, I thought I'd take a look again. Although most of them still seem mired in ad hominem exchanges between members, this question and thread seems promising and I am interested in the topic.
    Well, you were not missed. It has been much more enjoyable here without your disingenuous BS and foul, offensive mouth.
    Truth be told, you ran away because both your candidate and your ideology were crashing & burning. That's all a done deal now, everyone of your stupid, boorish opinions and posts have been completely dismantled.
    Tough luck Teddy but your track record as a loser goes back decades and remains intact.

    The OP of this thread is a like minded lightweight by the name of Warbler.
    Why don't the two of you do the rest of us a favor and go someplace else? Life here was so nice without you, if you ran away again...... and this time took him...... it would be even better.
    Last edited by 724Seney; June 30th, 2024 at 03:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    So to be clear, knowing that the study of the Bible can be taught in public schools consistent with the First Amendment, where would you draw your line?
    I think the separation of church and state forbids the Bible in public schools. There is no way to bring the Bible into public schools without bringing the Christian religion into public schools. Also to require the study of the Bible and not the other holy texts of thw world = endorsement

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    So to be clear, knowing that the study of the Bible can be taught in public schools consistent with the First Amendment, where would you draw your line?
    I think the separation of church and state forbids the Bible in public schools. There is no way to bring the Bible into public schools without bringing the Christian religion into public schools. Also to require the study of the Bible and not the other holy texts of thw world = endorsement
    W-

    You do realize that “separation of church and state” is nowhere to be found in the Constitution, right?

    And that USSC Justice Clark said that the Bible can be taught without running afoul of the First Amendment? That’s him in Post 2, above.

    You’re teaching American History and reach Lincoln’s House Divided speech. Can you tell your students the source of “house divided?” Or the Biblical references in his Second Inaugural Address? Or who the Pilgrims were? Can you explain “city on a hill?” The Battle Hymn of the Republic?. How about the role of the search for religious freedom in the founding of America, and the drafting of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights?

    To end where you began: Bibles are not banned in public schools. Students can carry Bibles. Would you be surprised that Bibles clubs meet in public schools?

    I’m afraid you’ve been misinformed.




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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    After 6 months away from these threads, I thought I'd take a look again. Although most of them still seem mired in ad hominem exchanges between members, this question and thread seems promising and I am interested in the topic.
    Well, you were not missed. It has been much more enjoyable here without your disingenuous BS and foul, offensive mouth.
    Truth be told, you ran away because both your candidate and your ideology were crashing & burning. That's all a done deal now, everyone of your stupid, boorish opinions and posts have been completely dismantled.
    Tough luck Teddy but your track record as a loser goes back decades and remains intact.

    The OP of this thread is a like minded lightweight by the name of Warbler.
    Why don't the two of you do the rest of us a favor and go someplace else? Life here was so nice without you, if you ran away again...... and this time took him...... it would be even better.
    Speak for yourself!

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    I poorly worded what I said. What I meant was that the separation of church and state forbids the teaching of the Bible. Yes kids can bring a Bible to school, but the government can not force them to do so. I suppose you can make reference to the Bible when teaching about “a house divided”. But lessons directly from the Bible? No.

    While the words separation of church and state are not found in the Bible, the concept has been confirmed by multiple court rulings. It is also implied by the endorsement clause in the 1st amendment and Thomas Jefferson talked about it in a letter.

    Seriously how can you justify a non Christian public school teacher being required to teach lessons from the Bible?

    I bet you would protest like crazy if a Christian public school teacher were required to teach lessons from the Koran.
    Last edited by Warbler; July 1st, 2024 at 08:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    After 6 months away from these threads, I thought I'd take a look again. Although most of them still seem mired in ad hominem exchanges between members, this question and thread seems promising and I am interested in the topic.
    Well, you were not missed. It has been much more enjoyable here without your disingenuous BS and foul, offensive mouth.
    Truth be told, you ran away because both your candidate and your ideology were crashing & burning. That's all a done deal now, everyone of your stupid, boorish opinions and posts have been completely dismantled.
    Tough luck Teddy but your track record as a loser goes back decades and remains intact.

    The OP of this thread is a like minded lightweight by the name of Warbler.
    Why don't the two of you do the rest of us a favor and go someplace else? Life here was so nice without you, if you ran away again...... and this time took him...... it would be even better.
    Sheesh what a jerk. Reminds me why I have him on ignore. Also I guess he doesn’t like diversity of opinions.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    After 6 months away from these threads, I thought I'd take a look again. Although most of them still seem mired in ad hominem exchanges between members, this question and thread seems promising and I am interested in the topic.
    Well, you were not missed. It has been much more enjoyable here without your disingenuous BS and foul, offensive mouth.
    Truth be told, you ran away because both your candidate and your ideology were crashing & burning. That's all a done deal now, everyone of your stupid, boorish opinions and posts have been completely dismantled.
    Tough luck Teddy but your track record as a loser goes back decades and remains intact.

    The OP of this thread is a like minded lightweight by the name of Warbler.
    Why don't the two of you do the rest of us a favor and go someplace else? Life here was so nice without you, if you ran away again...... and this time took him...... it would be even better.
    Speak for yourself!
    Don't flatter yourself dipstick. No one with an IQ two points higher than a vegetable could possibly speak for you.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Naill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 724Seney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    After 6 months away from these threads, I thought I'd take a look again. Although most of them still seem mired in ad hominem exchanges between members, this question and thread seems promising and I am interested in the topic.
    Well, you were not missed. It has been much more enjoyable here without your disingenuous BS and foul, offensive mouth.
    Truth be told, you ran away because both your candidate and your ideology were crashing & burning. That's all a done deal now, everyone of your stupid, boorish opinions and posts have been completely dismantled.
    Tough luck Teddy but your track record as a loser goes back decades and remains intact.

    The OP of this thread is a like minded lightweight by the name of Warbler.
    Why don't the two of you do the rest of us a favor and go someplace else? Life here was so nice without you, if you ran away again...... and this time took him...... it would be even better.
    Sheesh what a jerk. Reminds me why I have him on ignore. Also I guess he doesn’t like diversity of opinions.
    What you have reestablished for all of us with you pathetic morning posts are:
    1. When called out for a misinformed post your knee jerk reaction is to pass it off as a "poorly worded" entry as opposed to the truth...... which is you did not know.
    2. You love to harp about the way you put people on ignore...... only to prove to all that you actually do not ignore them

    You and TSherbs are "birds of a feather" Warbler. And Chuck is tantamount one of your droppings. Fly away one, fly away all!

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Could you please point out the "endorsement clause" of the FA?

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."




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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
    I poorly worded what I said. What I meant was that the separation of church and state forbids the teaching of the Bible. Yes kids can bring a Bible to school, but the government can not force them to do so. I suppose you can make reference to the Bible when teaching about “a house divided”. But lessons directly from the Bible? No.
    Actually, "lessons" directly from the Bible can be taught in class, as long as the lessons do not endorse or promote that faith. Similar class lessons can also be taught referencing other religious texts from other faiths (a few Zen koans, for example). Comparative religion electives can also be offered that look at the history and tenets of several faiths. Again, the standard here is not to endorse (or diminish) any of the faiths in relation to the others, or the teacher is in some legal and professional jeopardy.

    While the words separation of church and state are not found in the Bible,
    Constitution, you mean, of course.

    Seriously how can you justify a non Christian public school teacher being required to teach lessons from the Bible?
    If by "teach lessons" you mean to conduct class teachings that endorse, support, or promote a tenet of a specific faith, then yes, this would be wrong to ask of a public school teacher in the USA. No matter what their own specific faith is (it is illegal even to require a Christian public school teacher to do this)

    I bet you would protest like crazy if a Christian public school teacher were required to teach lessons from the Koran.
    See my previous comment.

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by kazoolaw View Post
    Could you please point out the "endorsement clause" of the FA?
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion“

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    Default Re: Oklahoma Superintendent of Schools as not heard of separation of church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Actually, "lessons" directly from the Bible can be taught in class, as long as the lessons do not endorse or promote that faith. Similar class lessons can also be taught referencing other religious texts from other faiths (a few Zen koans, for example). Comparative religion electives can also be offered that look at the history and tenets of several faiths. Again, the standard here is not to endorse (or diminish) any of the faiths in relation to the others, or the teacher is in some legal and professional jeopardy.
    I don’t know how you would teach a lesson from the Bible that wouldn’t endorse or promote the faith seeing as that is what the whole book is designed to do.

    Also isn’t just about allowing lessons from the Bible is about requiring them, and requiring lessons from the Bible but not other religions’s holy texts. That smacks of endorsement.


    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    While the words separation of church and state are not found in the Bible,
    Constitution, you mean, of course.
    Yes, I meant the Constitution. Sorry about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    Seriously how can you justify a non Christian public school teacher being required to teach lessons from the Bible?
    If by "teach lessons" you mean to conduct class teachings that endorse, support, or promote a tenet of a specific faith, then yes, this would be wrong to ask of a public school teacher in the USA. No matter what their own specific faith is (it is illegal even to require a Christian public school teacher to do this)
    Do you really want to tell me that the real motive behind this isn’t to somehow get lessons in the public schoolthat endorse, support, or promote tenets of Christianity? Especially considering that lessons from other religions’ texts are not being required?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSherbs View Post
    I bet you would protest like crazy if a Christian public school teacher were required to teach lessons from the Koran.
    See my previous comment.
    We both know the “religious right” tries like crazy to get Christianity in the public schools, but would protest like crazy if any other religion tried the same.

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