Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2025
    Posts
    6
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 7 Times in 4 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

    To Whom It May Concern,

    I'm currently writing a book with a section that deals with period correspondence from various workers of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company to its various clients and suppliers.

    I've come across a factory letter and at the signature line is a either a Word or Name or Phrase that I don't know the meaning of. Or that I can not make out / read the spelling of.

    I'm not sure what to make of it and was wondering if anyone on this forum could be of help?

    These factory letters are written in the Spencerian Era and for the most part are easy to read / decipher if one knows how to read & write in cursive. Which apparently now a days is a more rarer skill to have. Which is why a portion of my book will have these letters "transcribed" from cursive to print. Mainly for the ease of the modern day reader to comprehend said letters.

    Here is the word on the signature line in question, as denoted by the red arrow. The rest of the signature reads, "Yours very Truly Nelson King Superintendent". With Superintendent written in shorthand.

    1873May28th-Signature.jpg

    I'm uncertain if this is some sort of Old English or Latin phrase at the end of the signature. Or even more possibly another person's name.
    The reason I believe it maybe a person's name as I have seen on other factory documents a person's last name included written smaller after a signature line.
    Here is an example with the name "Veader" afterwards. I assume that this was similar to Cc: (Carbon Copying) someone, much like in a letter or email written today.

    1873October22nd-LetterWRACo-Signature.jpg

    The signature reads, "Very Respectfully O.F. Winchester President Winchester Repeating Arms Co." "Veader."
    Veader refers to Daniel H. Veader with Winchester Repeating Arms Company, and he was the company accountant from 1869 - 1906 and company director from 1890-1916. He was hired by "Governor" Winchester early on in the company's forming. Veader and Oliver F. Winchester were somewhat on friendly terms with one another until his death.

    One reason I thought this may be a Latin phrase is due to the fact that I've come across various Latin Abbreviations used in other letters in the past. If took me a minute to figure out that "Ult" is the abbreviations for the Latin word Ultimo, which means "in or of the month before the present one." With the abbreviation "ult" was often used in formal correspondence. Other minor things I've come across is former ways of spelling words, like "jist" being "just", etc.

    Any help on this specific matter would be most appreciated.

    Most Sincerely,
    Brady Henderson

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Maverick27 For This Useful Post:

    Kaputnik (February 6th, 2025)

  3. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    244
    Thanks
    45
    Thanked 100 Times in 74 Posts
    Rep Power
    6

    Default Re: Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

    It needs investigation; Can you spell it? I cannot identify the first letter in the word next to the red arrow; but fusseey? *ussee*z? p*sseey?. It doesn`t make sense to have a capitol B in the word? There were several writing standard in use at the time, and the 19, century was prone to personalisations with simplification, borrowing from other writing standards and flourishings.

    With just a quick search on the web;
    Veader is a name, or was, possibly derived from the meaning of feather, with a light and delicate personality. This is more thinking out loudly, with out being very specific or knowledgeable.
    Last edited by arrow; February 5th, 2025 at 03:22 PM.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to arrow For This Useful Post:

    LizEF (February 5th, 2025)

  5. #3
    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    9,224
    Thanks
    12,141
    Thanked 9,014 Times in 2,989 Posts
    Rep Power
    16

    Default Re: Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

    Hi there, welcome to this forum.
    After trying a few AI handwriting readers without result, I asked good old chatgpt.
    This is what it said, after it scanned the document you posted:

    The handwriting is quite ornate, but based on the image, the word you were trying to transcribe as "uBeecz" appears to be "per Brev" or "per Brag" (though "Brev" is more likely).

    Possible Meaning:
    "per Brev." could be shorthand for per breve, meaning "by short note" or "by brief" in Latin, which was sometimes used in formal or legal correspondence to indicate a short or summarized communication.
    It might also indicate that the letter was written or signed on behalf of someone else (possibly dictated or delegated).
    This abbreviation was relatively common in business and legal documents of the 19th century. Given that this letter is from Nelson King, Superintendent at Winchester, this notation could indicate a formal or authorized manner of correspondence.

    I hope it helped
    Ne supra crepidam

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Yazeh For This Useful Post:

    catbert (February 5th, 2025), Kaputnik (February 6th, 2025), Lloyd (February 5th, 2025), Robert (February 5th, 2025)

  7. #4
    Senior Member Yazeh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    Montreal, Canada
    Posts
    9,224
    Thanks
    12,141
    Thanked 9,014 Times in 2,989 Posts
    Rep Power
    16

    Default Re: Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

    Also in the 2nd letter, the word "Veader" can be Leader, according to Chatgpt. I'm not sure how true it is. But here you go
    Ne supra crepidam

  8. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2022
    Posts
    429
    Thanks
    132
    Thanked 210 Times in 121 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

    I've seen this form before, in some of my maternal grandparents' business writings. I don't remember what I based it on, but have long understood it was the person who physically wrote the note, as from someone else's dictation.
    Hope that helps, & of course that it's accurate! Funny how you can see something so many times & basically take it for granted, without questioning it.
    ~J.

  9. #6
    Senior Member Robert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    664
    Thanks
    1,282
    Thanked 426 Times in 299 Posts
    Rep Power
    13

    Default Re: Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

    Maverick27 - I did a search for "Spencerian" on this site and turned up this thread:

    http://fpgeeks.com/forum/showthread....ght=Spenserian

    The person (user name "Cyril") who started it seems fairly knowledgable on this topic and is still active on FPG - perhaps you could PM him/her (?)

  10. #7
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2025
    Posts
    6
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 7 Times in 4 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

    Quote Originally Posted by arrow View Post
    With just a quick search on the web;
    Veader is a name, or was, possibly derived from the meaning of feather, with a light and delicate personality. This is more thinking out loudly, with out being very specific or knowledgeable.
    If you carefully read my initial post, you'll see where I explain who Veader is. The reason I recognized the name is that Mr. Veader in 1918 co-wrote a manuscript on the History of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company. He's also mentioned in several editions of the company's own magazine.

    January17-1919-Page5-WinchesterRecordMag.jpg
    May9-1919-WinchesterRecord-1.jpg

  11. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Maverick27 For This Useful Post:

    Kaputnik (February 6th, 2025), Yazeh (February 6th, 2025)

  12. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2025
    Posts
    6
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 7 Times in 4 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

    Possible Meaning:
    "per Brev." could be shorthand for per breve, meaning "by short note" or "by brief" in Latin, which was sometimes used in formal or legal correspondence to indicate a short or summarized communication.
    It might also indicate that the letter was written or signed on behalf of someone else (possibly dictated or delegated).
    This abbreviation was relatively common in business and legal documents of the 19th century. Given that this letter is from Nelson King, Superintendent at Winchester, this notation could indicate a formal or authorized manner of correspondence.
    Quote Originally Posted by ~JJ View Post
    I've seen this form before, in some of my maternal grandparents' business writings. I don't remember what I based it on, but have long understood it was the person who physically wrote the note, as from someone else's dictation.
    Hope that helps, & of course that it's accurate! Funny how you can see something so many times & basically take it for granted, without questioning it.
    ~J.
    This seems to make a lot of sense. I think "by dictation" would be an appropriate note to include on a signature line of business correspondence.
    Until someone offers up something more plausible, it seems to be the most likely explanation.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Maverick27 For This Useful Post:

    Yazeh (February 6th, 2025)

  14. #9
    FPG Donor ♕ Chrissy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    11,940
    Thanks
    7,381
    Thanked 11,514 Times in 4,314 Posts
    Rep Power
    26

    Default Re: Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

    In the letter from Nelson King if you look at the "p" in the word supt it is identical to the first letter of the word below it. Therefore it looks like it's written as perBreve
    Last edited by Chrissy; February 7th, 2025 at 01:27 AM.
    Regards, Chrissy | My Review Blog: inkyfountainpens

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Chrissy For This Useful Post:

    INeedAFinancialAdvisor (February 6th, 2025), Yazeh (February 6th, 2025)

  16. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2025
    Posts
    6
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 7 Times in 4 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    In the letter from Nelson King. if you look at the "p" in the word supt it is identical to the first letter of the word below it. Therefore it looks like it's written as perBreve
    I think this is the most plausible explanation for what is written on the page. Thank you everyone for your help and comments.

  17. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Maverick27 For This Useful Post:

    INeedAFinancialAdvisor (February 6th, 2025), Lloyd (February 6th, 2025), Yazeh (February 6th, 2025)

  18. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2022
    Posts
    429
    Thanks
    132
    Thanked 210 Times in 121 Posts
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

    Did anyone else notice that in the above 2 photos of Mr. Veader one is the exact same image, with reversed negative? Even back then there was this common error in the printing press' makeup dept.
    (I used to work in one of those depts, with the old Winston-Salem Journal-Sentinel.)

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to ~JJ For This Useful Post:

    Yazeh (February 7th, 2025)

  20. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    209
    Thanks
    533
    Thanked 204 Times in 104 Posts
    Rep Power
    3

    Default Re: Word or Phrase Meaning? - After Signature on Spencerian Era Letter

    Quote Originally Posted by ~JJ View Post
    Did anyone else notice that in the above 2 photos of Mr. Veader one is the exact same image, with reversed negative? Even back then there was this common error in the printing press' makeup dept.
    (I used to work in one of those depts, with the old Winston-Salem Journal-Sentinel.)
    When I was a child (quite some time ago) I noticed a pattern in newspapers that when a photo of a person accompanied an article, the photo was oriented with the person looking toward the article. I first noticed it when a photo of a policeman had his badge on the wrong side of his shirt. I guessed at what had been done, then observed future articles. I saw that the pattern was always followed if the photo was even slightly in profile, and when not in profile, if the person was looking to one side it was still done.

    Update: I could have been clearer when I first posted this. I didn't mention how I knew about orientation in subsequent photos (after the police badge). Here are a few examples: Soldiers with medals on the wrong side of their chest, men's shirts with pockets on the wrong side (often with pens in those pockets), people wearing name badges with the lettering in mirror image, and people standing in front of buildings I was familiar with shown the building in mirror image. Every time that error occurred, the person was depicted looking toward the relevant news article, while when images weren't reversed people also looked toward the relevant article.
    Last edited by Niner; February 7th, 2025 at 03:52 PM.

  21. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Niner For This Useful Post:

    Lloyd (February 7th, 2025), Yazeh (February 7th, 2025)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •