What's the big deal...

[peterpen53]

...with flex? Could somebody please enlighten me?
My handwriting style is heavily influenced by italic script. Of course it's at its finest when written with an edged pen, however wide does not really matter. But for more than 25 years I have been doing quite nicely with round-nibbed pens, using a sort of monoline italic in my everyday writing. And I should add that in writing italic, not putting any pressure on the nib is almost elevated to an art form.
Since I have joined two fountain pen forums, I regularly encounter near-endless rants by people who are complaining that modern-day pens don't have flex. And when I see what they want to achieve I just don't get it. To get line variation with a 'flex pen', one would have to put more or less pressure on the nib. I'm sure this would disturb my writing flow and tire my hand and fingers more quickly. On top of that, line variation with a flex pen always reminds me of Copperplate, which I'm not particularly fond of. In fact it makes me think of those horrible dip pens they used in school to teach me a terrible sort of cursive that thank-goodness I have managed to completely forget. If I really want line variation, I take a pen with an italic nib or, in the near future, a stub, and let the pen make the line variation for me, without me exerting pressure on the nib.
So it would seem that flex is not for me. But apparently it is important to a great many people, so at least I would like to understand their view and I would appreciate anyone's input. Thanks.

Cheers,
Peter

[Jon Szanto]

I think you've already answered your own question: it just isn't something important for you.

For others, we need to keep in mind that a fountain pen can do a number of things that other writing implements can't do (or do differently, or not as well). The control of line width variation that comes with any manner of flexible nibs - be they vintage flex, or modern equivalents - when placed in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, can be a beautiful thing. For a number of reasons, it isn't going to be something I'll pursue in depth, though I've gotten a couple. Nonetheless, I have high appreciation for the artistry that can come from those lovely flexible nibs, and art is in the eye of the beholder. If, for you, a pen is literally to put alphanumeric characters on paper with ink in the most efficient manner possible, it seems like you've already got your solution.

Don't begrudge the others who see something else in the use of a fountain pen.

[peterpen53]

Since my earlier post even made this week's podcast I think I should expand a little bit, because I think I was misunderstood more than just a bit.

First of all, I don't begrudge anybody anything. As I have said, I would like to understand something that I currently don't. In fact, it disturbs me that I don't. And the fact that I prefer Italic scripts over 'Copperplate-like' scripts does not mean I cannot appreciate someone else's art, in whatever form. I have the greatest respect for the artful skills and thoughtfulness of somebody like Caliken, well-known on the other forum and whose art I suspect at least some of you will know, and who is very proficient in almost any type of script. (www.caliken.co.uk has some wonderful samples of his work)
To say that "a pen is literally to put alphanumeric characters on paper with ink in the most efficient manner possible" is really stretching it. I will admit that I am fairly rational about writing with a pen, with reason: as I stated in another thread I used to write very much in my job for a long time. Let's face it: personal, and above all portable computers became widespread in my profession (and in my country) just about 15 years ago, and I think we were early adopters. That leaves the first 20-some years of my professional career to be filled with pen and ink. And even if I write without a professional necessity, I still like it to have some sense or purpose. But nevertheless: not only do I like it to be legible but also to look good. That's why I'm currently hunting for italics, stubs and music nibs, which are disappointingly hard to come by in my region (praise the world wide web, everyone). And I even went for a few fine nibs that I have shied away from for more than 30 years, for the sake of variety and purpose.
As Eric quite correctly mentioned in the course of the podcast, I have never used flex before. Perhaps my best chance were the dip pens in primary school, but there we were neither required nor encouraged to use it. And I was glad to hear that Eric, like me, has no use for flex in his ordinary daily writing. As I said before, I don't think my writing style lends itself for flex. But I don't think that should (and would) keep me from exploring it. But before I do that, I have to "get" it.
Now, if anyone has any bright ideas in what way I could use flex, I would very much like to hear them.

Cheers,
Peter

[radellaf]

You're not alone. Flex is interesting, but I really don't like my line thickness (or ink density for that matter) varying. Monoline stiff nibs are just fine by me, though a touch of stub-ness is fine. And, sometimes, for flair, I like an edged nib like the lamy or TWSBI 1.1.

I like a bit of spring in some nibs, but I'd prefer it affected line width minimally.

Call it boring, but it's what I like. That, and a lot of ink colors...and a point just big enough to make the color legible, but nothing larger than a Pelikan M.

What I _really_ don't get is italic nibs with flex. To me, the styles just do not mix. Springy, again, is fine.

[Jon Szanto]

To say that "a pen is literally to put alphanumeric characters on paper with ink in the most efficient manner possible" is really stretching it.

Which is why I put "If" before it. I didn't say you were precisely that functionally inclined, but that it was a possibility. However, at the end of your second long post on the subject, you write the following:

As I said before, I don't think my writing style lends itself for flex. But I don't think that should (and would) keep me from exploring it. But before I do that, I have to "get" it. Now, if anyone has any bright ideas in what way I could use flex, I would very much like to hear them.

How would you propose that some person "get" the enjoyment or interest of using *any* fountain pen who hasn't ever tried one? You say that before you "explore" a flex nib, you have to "get" it. I can't quite figure out why:

1. You can't "get" why individuals would be completely smitten by what a flex, and *only* a flex, nib can do for their handwriting, and
2. You are bothered by their enthusiasm ("rants") but are unwilling to experience it for yourself.

I'm not trying to be a hard-ass or anything, I'm just not seeing how anyone can help you at this point. Maybe it is just plain old acceptance you need - the acceptance that there seem to be a fair number of passionate people out there who are devoted to the use of flex nibs. I mean, I've had to accept the fact that there is a cult devoted to Montblanc pens and paraphernalia.

[jor412]

I like the point about acceptance. I got interested in fountain pens by accident. I had previous experience with them, thanks to my dad. And then a gift from a former, much esteemed boss, which lead me to looking for a missing part, which inevitably lead me to reading about them and the whole complexity of their history, the materials they're made of, the variety of nibs, the inks, the ways in which we could use the pens.

As a newbie, I was drawn to flex pens because of what I saw other people doing with them. I realized after trying them out that using flex pens was harder than it looked, so I resigned myself to appreciating those who could wield them in creative ways. It was enough for me to see that these flex pens could be deployed to make and perform art. They're not for me on a daily writing basis. I have a few and I enjoy playing with them. And that's that, I think. They can be fun like other pens and/or they can be instruments of calligraphy or drawing. If they're not for you (or me), they don't have to be. I suppose one concrete example of the way they can be used can be found in the blog of Leigh Reyes. (www.leighreyes.com)

[manoeuver]

Peter, I'd say try one and see if it does anything for you. You could check out one of the cheap Noodler's flex pens if you can find one, or borrow one if there's an enabler nearby.

I just realized yesterday why my Ahab isn't really doing much for me: A flex pen in the left hand isn't going to perform when I'm pushing it across the page. Dangit.

[Jon Szanto]

I just realized yesterday why my Ahab isn't really doing much for me: A flex pen in the left hand isn't going to perform when I'm pushing it across the page. Dangit.

Whoa.

Same here. After getting interested in pens (again) about a year ago, I started getting curious about flex. I ended up investigating pens from the early Noodler's flex to getting a couple of Eversharps with flex nibs, and ran into that same roadblock: you would not only have to learn the techniques for using a flex pen, but also completely alter your writing posture and format if you are left-handed. It *can* be done, but requires a lot of hoops to be jumped through. Haven't gone there, myself.

BTW, I've picked up a couple of books that assist the left-hander in handwriting/calligraphy. Drop me a PM if you'd like some references.

[manoeuver]

I decided today I'd revisit my high-school habit of taking notes backward and see how it looks. Turns out I left my Ahab at a client's office on thursday. Doh!

[Tracy Lee]

I find it a little awkward with a fountain pen, but still do it in certain meetings where I really don't want someone near me to immediately decipher. Very useful in depositions or other legal meetings when your adversary is across the table.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

[Lince]

Peterpen: I try flex because I like the style you can get with the broad downstrokes and the thin upstokes.
I hope I can get to flourish the capital letters.
That said: if as you stated in your first post that you do not like the copperplate style so maybe the flex is not for you.
On the other hand I love my cursive italic nibs. for me the fun of the pens is to get different colors and different styles of lines (even rounded tips F and B), every time.
My Namiki Falcon added flex is the pen I enjoy the most (enjoy but not use), the only problem is that in the regular work notebook it feathers when I lay to much ink.
My CI nibs don't have that problem because even though they lay a broad line it is done with less ink (doctoring, like scraping the excess ink with the nib's edge).

[Lince]

Whoa.

Same here. After getting interested in pens (again) about a year ago, I started getting curious about flex. I ended up investigating pens from the early Noodler's flex to getting a couple of Eversharps with flex nibs, and ran into that same roadblock: you would not only have to learn the techniques for using a flex pen, but also completely alter your writing posture and format if you are left-handed. It *can* be done, but requires a lot of hoops to be jumped through. Haven't gone there, myself.

BTW, I've picked up a couple of books that assist the left-hander in handwriting/calligraphy. Drop me a PM if you'd like some references.

I think flex for lefties can be done. If you look the inclination and angle of attack of the nib in an oblique holder you can see that it is the same angle a left handed person would hold a pen. I am not a left handed person, but from a physical perspective I think it can be done.

[jor412]

Peterpen: I try flex because I like the style you can get with the broad downstrokes and the thin upstokes.
I hope I can get to flourish the capital letters.
That said: if as you stated in your first post that you do not like the copperplate style so maybe the flex is not for you.
On the other hand I love my cursive italic nibs. for me the fun of the pens is to get different colors and different styles of lines (even rounded tips F and B), every time.
My Namiki Falcon added flex is the pen I enjoy the most (enjoy but not use), the only problem is that in the regular work notebook it feathers when I lay to much ink.
My CI nibs don't have that problem because even though they lay a broad line it is done with less ink (doctoring, like scraping the excess ink with the nib's edge).

I like flex nibs to play with, but for writing I prefer the cursive italic because I find it easier to use. Maybe at some point, I'll take the time to learn how to write with flex. We had a local pen meet and two of our members who have a lot of skill in using flex pens signed their names with great flourish. It was nice to see and something to aspire to.

[Pinkys.Brain]

Whoa.

Same here. After getting interested in pens (again) about a year ago, I started getting curious about flex. I ended up investigating pens from the early Noodler's flex to getting a couple of Eversharps with flex nibs, and ran into that same roadblock: you would not only have to learn the techniques for using a flex pen, but also completely alter your writing posture and format if you are left-handed. It *can* be done, but requires a lot of hoops to be jumped through. Haven't gone there, myself.

BTW, I've picked up a couple of books that assist the left-hander in handwriting/calligraphy. Drop me a PM if you'd like some references.

Lefties can use flex nics when they write underhand. Overhand/hook-lefties cannot use the flex, but nowadays writing overhand or with the hand forming a hook is seen as the wrong way of lefty-writing anyway.

The writing position that is propagated for left-handed is: paper in fron of the left shoulder, have the paper slanted by about 30°, not going into "hook-mode". Then (depending on the angle of your hand) the downlstrikes can be used for profiting from a flex nic.

I recently got a GEHA school pen with has nice more or less flexy steel nib. While my underhand flex-writing is not a sight to behold, as I always used the "hook-mode", a certain amount of the right flex can be achieved.

[Jon Szanto]

As a life-long left-hander, I'm not saying it is impossible to utilize a flex nib in some minor way. That said, the fact of the matter is most of our cursive and italic-based handwriting styles, when used with a nib that flexs, depend on the action of the nib being drawn away from the tip, so that the pen is flexing as it is being pulled over the paper. There is no way to mimic the same motions from the left - one ends up, in some portion of the stroke, *pushing* the pen, and on a fine flex point, that means the pen wants to dig into the paper.

Note that I'm coming at this principally from the perspective of a traditional fountain pen orientation, not an oblique dip nib holder, which is not only a different beast but not something I thought the OP was talking about. I *have* seen enormously gifted left-handed calligraphers, most notably John DeCollibus. Notice in the following that, indeed, you can come very close to approximating right-hand style with the oblique holder and paper rotation, but what he is doing in the first part can't be realistically duplicated in a standard pen; what he is doing in the latter part of the video is one part artistry and another part magic...

[caliken]

I have the greatest respect for the artful skills and thoughtfulness of somebody like Caliken, well-known on the other forum and whose art I suspect at least some of you will know, and who is very proficient in almost any type of script. (www.caliken.co.uk has some wonderful samples of his work)

Peter

Please note my new web site www.kenfrasercalligrapher.co.uk

Ken

[Oblique and Inky]

Dear peterpen53

I completely agree with you. There's just something 'right' about italic script. Such new fangled stuff as copperplate doesn't resonate into the soul.

Have you spoken with Oxonian about nib grinding? Far easier, and a lot better, than looking for something off the shelf.

[AndyT]

Two things about flex nibs.

You can vary the width of downstrokes at will, which puts you very much in control. So, if you want the stem of a "p" to go from a hairline at the top to BBB at the bottom that's possible, as is a "d" with a broad top tapering to the baseline. Or you can shade the bottom loop of an "f" but not the top. Whatever - it's your choice, not the pen's. Examples from PZ Bloser's "Lessons in Ornamental Penmanship":

bloser.jpg

every other.jpg

The other thing is feel. If you're used to writing with a good deal of pressure as with a ballpoint, a fully flexible pen is going to be a real handful and probably mightily frustrating to start with. With very little pressure, however, the pen will dance and that can be a source of a great deal of pleasure. That's the main reason why I like those Nib Creapers so much - you get a pen a with a bit of a spring in its step for very little money. The nibs don't have the feel of a vintage semi-flex, let alone a truly flexible one, but they do have a bit of life to them which perks up the everyday writing experience considerably.