Conway Stewart Churchill Pressure bar cutting into new sacs help needed.

[Paul-H]

Hi all

I need some help PLEASE

I have just picked up a near mint condition Conway Stewart Churchill number 5xx of 1000 so just over halfway through the production run.

I quickly found the pen had an issue with its filling system as it would only take a tiny amount of ink, and sure enough when I took it apart to investigate I found the the ink sac was badly deformed just as it joined the nipple. It looks to me like its a design fault as the lever bends the top section of the pressure bar into the barrel so when operated the pressure bar only depresses the very top section of the sac and hence the damage to the neck of the sac.

I understand that Richard Binder used to offer a mod to this pen to fix the obvious design flaw but as he is no longer doing pen repairs, anyone know what his mod was.

Thanks for any help with this

Paul

[Paul-H]

This is a quick sketch to show what the issue is

[Mags]

While I can't help on the fix or repair. I can say my Churchill fills so it's 28 drops of ink if you empty and count..... that is apparently the normal capacity. 2 days of writing in my experience.

[Paul-H]

Thanks

That's a lot more than the 5 or so drops I am getting with mine.

Paul

[Jeph]

I still do not know what the inside looks like, but if I have interpreted that correctly, the bent down section bites on the neck of the sac.
Could you not bend that portion into a pigtail to curve away from the sac and yet still not contact the inside of the barrel like this?
I have to agree that it looks like a pretty serious design flaw.

ConwatStewartFiller tweak.jpg

The previous picture was what I was thinking, but this represents what I actually said and is probably even better if your sketch is reasonably accurate.
ConwatStewartFiller tweak2.jpg

[Paul-H]

Hi Jeph

Thanks for that.

I was thinking along similar lines with this one by holding the end of the pressure bar by pulling it forward slightly so its held by the nipple, I have tried it and it does appear to work, just got to await delivery of another new sac as CS did not follow standards with their sac size selection, the nipple is sized for a #20 but the sac they fitted is more like a #23, so the #20 delivered today is far too small for the barrel diameter. The #23 should be delivered tomorrow so I will post back then if my idea has worked or not.

Paul

[maryburke]

Hi Paul,

I notice you have a similar thread on FPN. As I stated earlier, your pen was made and sold back in 2006.

Your pen is 8 years old, and unless you are the original owner, there is a possibility that the sac has been replaced by a person/company that is not an official CS pen repairer.

Can you please advise the retailer's name you purchased the pen from so that we can match the information with our records.

With kind regards,

Mary Burke
maryburke@conwaystewart.co.uk

[Flounder]

How close is the lever's pivot point to the sac nipple? Jeph's idea of curling the end of the J bar seems a sensible solution.

edit - depending on the space available, you could mitigate the situation with an extra piece of J bar/cannibalise a strip from a cheap Chinese squeeze filler pen, lodged between the sac nipple and barrel wall. That way the sac would be less likely to be pulled off the section, is protected from tearing, and more of the top end of the sac would be squeezed as the lever travels.


CW extra pivot.jpg

I've borrowed your picture, this presumes the main J bar is fully inserted to the end of the barrel, and does not itself occupy the space between sac nipple and barrel wall.

[Paul-H]

Hi

I think the main problem is the use of a j-Bar rather than the tried and tested the original CS used and end is just far too close to the sac nipple so every time it's used it exerts too much pressure on the sac at the nipple where it cannot give under the applied pressure of the bar end.

I did try my method of tucking the bar against the barrel using the section and although this did work it made the leaver a touch to heavy to use and would probably result in premature failure of the lever.

You idea with an extra pressure bar sound promising, I will give it a go. I have stocked up on sacs of the correct size to replace them as they get damaged.

I have been reading quite a few posts about this issue on quite a few other Pen related forums and it is apparently quite a common fault that CS where well aware of but chose to do nothing about. Alegedly or keep quiet about the fix if they did.

Paul

[mhosea]

In the other thread you mention the possibility of using a silicone sac. You haven't mentioned it since, but I just wanted to note that silicone sacs cut/tear much easier than latex, so you need a well-designed filler for their use.

[Paul-H]

Thanks Mike, and noted.

Paul

[Paul-H]

Hi all

Just an update

the pictures below show why the Design used by CS on their Churchill Pen is so badly flawed, had they used the tried and tested version used by the original Conway Stewart this would have been a faultless pen, as it should have been for the price.

How this design got past RD is beyond comprehension.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Wile E Coyote]

I don't know if it could be done; but how about reversing the lever box so the point of pressure application to the j-bar is further back in the barrel?

[Paul-H]

Thanks for the thought it might work, but not sure I want to risk damage to an replaceable part though, if I damage to box getting it out I would be stuffed, think I will be sticking with the keeping loads of sacs in stock route and changing it out as soon as the amount of ink taken when filled drops to an unacceptable level.

Thanks for all the tips though, they have all been most helpful, and hope this has been of help to others, either owners of Churchill'd or perspective owners. Is the Churchill the only lever will pen CS make now or are there others that we might need to watch out for.

Paul

[Flounder]

If you're committing to that route, I'd recommend smaller, necked sacs and a very generous application of talc.

I wouldn't give up though. If Mr. Binder found a solution, there must be one out there. Does someone have a photo of the pen? Is the lever that close to the section?

[Paul-H]

Anyone know what Richard Binders Mod was?

I have also read elsewhere that a possible fix is to use a smaller ink sac, as the one CS fit is very large, a #23, if a smaller sac is used the J-Bar has more movement to make before it comes into contact with the sac. Obviously less ink will be taken up but less damage would be done to the neck of the sac.

I will give it a go when the new #23 on there at the moment gets damaged in time.

One other thing to note regarding ink sac size is that although CS us a #23 the nipple is sized for a #21, the #23 is just a push fit, and the sac I took out was the original, as the guy I bought it from had owned it from new and never had it fixed, he just through it in a draw when it stopped taking ink after only a couple of years light use.

Paul

[Jon Szanto]

I'm just curious: I wonder what would happen if you were to sum up all of this information, including a good diagram or two, and send a letter to Conway-Stewart, just what their response would be. I certainly seems like a very inept design, *unless* there was an unusual pressure bar design that could be used. I find it hard to believe that something such as this, which seems to be destined for sac failure right off of the drawing board, would NOT be addressed by a company when brought to their attention.

I'm sure it must be frustrating, and isn't something that an end-user should have to deal with, certainly not in the technical manner that you have, Paul.

[SteveE]

Well, guys, this is why my Churchill is a drawer-queen. I have one of the first production run pens, I think -- it is number 4XX/500 for the tobacco brown color. That pen has more frequent flier miles than I have, having been back to the US distributor (I think it went to visit both Don Yendl and Dick Egolf at one time or another) as well as to the factory more than once, and still it fails. At one point the factory offered to turn the pen into a c/c, but to me that was admitting defeat and it was too early in the battle. Also, one of the reasons I bought the pen was the lever filler and had it been a c/c, it would have been "just another c/c pen" and I might not have purchased it. My only regret is not sending it to Richard for his fix, but at the time his wait list was months long and I was impatient. If there was a viable fix for the problem, I could use the pen (or even sell it, but as it is I will not sell it).

I'll keep watching this thread.

[Jon Szanto]

Paul, you may not be the most diplomatic of people at every moment of the day, but the way the parallel thread over at FPN was closed down sucks bowling balls. There just isn't any credibility at all to those C-S threads, and it is a disgrace. "Hi, we're a fan club, don't rain on our parade with reality!"

[Paul-H]

Me not diplomatic, don't know what you mean, those who know me would say I can be as diplomatic as a brick in the face.

I still think there was a touch of over reaction on the other place, but that is to be expected I suppose, they have a reputation for that sort of thing and reputations have to be upheld, right

Paul