I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

[jar]

For example, why do tribal communities tend to repress women?

And also ask why that is not true of many tribal societies.

Simplistic answers are most often just simplistic.

I'm not sure I follow your intent. I'm just a little weary of secular humanist fantasies about religion being evil. Where evil exists, people are evil, and I see no reason to suppose humanity would change with or without the religious themes that many humans paint on top of their social, political, cultural, economic, and occasionally sociopathic or psychotic motivations.

Well, my point is as was mentioned in the OP that often religions have been and are today evil; in particular Christianity has been by far the most efficient and successful practitioner of genocide so far. Even today Christianity is one of the greatest proponent of willful ignorance and opponent of critical thinking around. That is particularly true in the US.

As a Theist and a Christian I need to be honest about religion and in particular Christianity, recognize where religion has failed, acknowledge and repent those failures and try not to repeat those failures.

[writingrav]

I have tried to stay out of these threads, but the tone is turning precisely in such a way as to justify the forbearance of topics such as religion and politics from the forums. FPN may have been heavy handed in its treatment of Manny (whose use of Scripture for pen-mediatative purposes does not bother me in the least, I appreciate both the artistry and the sentiment) however ongoing discussions of these topics inevitably result in unpleasantry. Perhaps there would be wisdom in self-policing this development?

[mhosea]

More than happy to oblige.

[Jon Szanto]

Let us all be of good heart, no matter the source we attribute that goodness to, and be glad that we are able to speak to one another about these things instead of being stifled and locked.

[jar]

I have tried to stay out of these threads, but the tone is turning precisely in such a way as to justify the forbearance of topics such as religion and politics from the forums. FPN may have been heavy handed in its treatment of Manny (whose use of Scripture for pen-mediatative purposes does not bother me in the least, I appreciate both the artistry and the sentiment) however ongoing discussions of these topics inevitably result in unpleasantry. Perhaps there would be wisdom in self-policing this development?

Fortunately so far I have seen no unpleasantness at least in this thread. As long as discourse is civil why should any subject be exempt from discussion or criticism?

[Flounder]

“ Humans, through the scope, extent and intent of their capabilities can do things to help. If he were any other mammal, suffering any disease or breakage, he would be on his own. The other primates do not set and brace broken limbs. They do not treat the diseases that inflict others of their kind, much less other species.

That brings me to the fourth attribute that I've mentioned in the past, Empathy.

Humans have empathy that extends beyond their immediate family, their species, their clan, their nation. They are the only critters that actually intentionally try to improve the lives of other critters regardless of relationship. The concept of a veterinarian is uniquely human.

Yes, when I look around, I see the product of a Good GOD.

FWIW, I think there are better analogies if we're pointing out how awesome we are. On the scale of balance, humans are total jerks to the other species we share the planet with. We've exterminated or enslaved them wherever we've set foot and continue to do so on an industrial scale. A few vets don't count for much.

I'm sure we've all read the occasional article of animal altruism, dolphins rescuing sailors etc. Here's a few I've enjoyed:

Sperm whales chumming up with a dolphin suffering from scoliosis
A dog and an orphaned orangutan palling up
Hippos rescuing a gnu fro some asshole crocodile

I don't buy into the idea that empathy is the preserve of man.

[Manny]

As long as I can keep clicking that "Thanks" icon--on the bottom left of the post--I'm good.

[Flounder]

As long as I can keep clicking that "Thanks" icon--on the bottom left of the post--I'm good.

I'm trying to think up an iconoclast pun, but I've got nothing.

[Titivillus]

This is one of those times I wish I had the Faith that others show.

[Manny]

This is one of those times I wish I had the Faith that others show.

Well, this is one of those times I'm glad I didn't delete the images like this one from the FPN.

[jar]

“ Humans, through the scope, extent and intent of their capabilities can do things to help. If he were any other mammal, suffering any disease or breakage, he would be on his own. The other primates do not set and brace broken limbs. They do not treat the diseases that inflict others of their kind, much less other species.

That brings me to the fourth attribute that I've mentioned in the past, Empathy.

Humans have empathy that extends beyond their immediate family, their species, their clan, their nation. They are the only critters that actually intentionally try to improve the lives of other critters regardless of relationship. The concept of a veterinarian is uniquely human.

Yes, when I look around, I see the product of a Good GOD.

FWIW, I think there are better analogies if we're pointing out how awesome we are. On the scale of balance, humans are total jerks to the other species we share the planet with. We've exterminated or enslaved them wherever we've set foot and continue to do so on an industrial scale. A few vets don't count for much.

I'm sure we've all read the occasional article of animal altruism, dolphins rescuing sailors etc. Here's a few I've enjoyed:

Sperm whales chumming up with a dolphin suffering from scoliosis
A dog and an orphaned orangutan palling up
Hippos rescuing a gnu fro some asshole crocodile

I don't buy into the idea that empathy is the preserve of man.

And I agree. I tried to make that clear. It is the scope and extent that is different when it comes to humans.

Please don't think I ignore the fact that other critters show such traits, after all my belief is that God is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen. I would imagine that pond scum is every bit as dear to GOD as any other creation.

Nor do I deny that humans often behave badly.

[Jon Szanto]

Just as an aside, I've made a suggestion to the admins. If you have a moment, please take a look and offer any thoughts, as it comes pretty specifically from this general thread...

[Cookies]

“ Humans, through the scope, extent and intent of their capabilities can do things to help. If he were any other mammal, suffering any disease or breakage, he would be on his own. The other primates do not set and brace broken limbs. They do not treat the diseases that inflict others of their kind, much less other species.

That brings me to the fourth attribute that I've mentioned in the past, Empathy.

Humans have empathy that extends beyond their immediate family, their species, their clan, their nation. They are the only critters that actually intentionally try to improve the lives of other critters regardless of relationship. The concept of a veterinarian is uniquely human.

Yes, when I look around, I see the product of a Good GOD.

FWIW, I think there are better analogies if we're pointing out how awesome we are. On the scale of balance, humans are total jerks to the other species we share the planet with. We've exterminated or enslaved them wherever we've set foot and continue to do so on an industrial scale. A few vets don't count for much.

I'm sure we've all read the occasional article of animal altruism, dolphins rescuing sailors etc. Here's a few I've enjoyed:

Sperm whales chumming up with a dolphin suffering from scoliosis
A dog and an orphaned orangutan palling up
Hippos rescuing a gnu fro some asshole crocodile

I don't buy into the idea that empathy is the preserve of man.

I have to agree quite vehemently. I would, in fact, say the absolute opposite is true. Humans are horrifically cruel creatures, especially to those animals who cannot fight back. We lock them in cages, cut off their beaks, and grind baby chicks alive. We take animals more intelligent than dogs and stick them in pens so small they will never be able to turn around in their entire lives. electrocute, gas, and break necks of animals for fur. We perform muelsing, dock and castrate sheep for wool. Neither of these materials are required for survival in the modern age. And we not just let these cruelties happen but actually support these industries because...?

Likewise there are numerous other animals that take care of each other regardless of relationship. Many animals will adopt strays outside of their clan. Elephants famously take care of their orphaned calves. Chimpanzees mourn for dead social mates. Dogs routinely put their lives on the line to save their masters (or even strangers). Non-human animals are capable of caring beyond their own lives. Unlike humans however, non-human animals are not capable of cruelty solely for the sake of amusement. Humans kill for sport.

There are some great people in this world capable of empathy beyond description. But the vast majority are indifferent and idle in response to cruelty.

Please be aware, I am not saying that your points about your religion don't stand. Simply that your points about human empathy are quite flawed in my views.

[Sailor Kenshin]

I have to agree quite vehemently. I would, in fact, say the absolute opposite is true. Humans are horrifically cruel creatures, especially to those animals who cannot fight back. We lock them in cages, cut off their beaks, and grind baby chicks alive. We take animals more intelligent than dogs and stick them in pens so small they will never be able to turn around in their entire lives. electrocute, gas, and break necks of animals for fur. We perform muelsing, dock and castrate sheep for wool. Neither of these materials are required for survival in the modern age. And we not just let these cruelties happen but actually support these industries because...?

Likewise there are numerous other animals that take care of each other regardless of relationship. Many animals will adopt strays outside of their clan. Elephants famously take care of their orphaned calves. Chimpanzees mourn for dead social mates. Dogs routinely put their lives on the line to save their masters (or even strangers). Non-human animals are capable of caring beyond their own lives. Unlike humans however, non-human animals are not capable of cruelty solely for the sake of amusement. Humans kill for sport.

There are some great people in this world capable of empathy beyond description. But the vast majority are indifferent and idle in response to cruelty.

Please be aware, I am not saying that your points about your religion don't stand. Simply that your points about human empathy are quite flawed in my views.

Studying animal behavior was my childhood passion. As an adult, we had three kittehs who were part of our family for nearly 20 years and who at times seemed 'human' and whom I still miss.

Animals commit genocide. They kill and eat their young. They kill for fun. Put two doves in a cage together and they will peck each other to death.

Nature is complex. It is what it is. Behavior is complex. The vast majority of humans are not indifferent but struggling to survive.

But only humans are capable of good and evil, because only humans understand the difference.

[jar]

“ Humans, through the scope, extent and intent of their capabilities can do things to help. If he were any other mammal, suffering any disease or breakage, he would be on his own. The other primates do not set and brace broken limbs. They do not treat the diseases that inflict others of their kind, much less other species.

That brings me to the fourth attribute that I've mentioned in the past, Empathy.

Humans have empathy that extends beyond their immediate family, their species, their clan, their nation. They are the only critters that actually intentionally try to improve the lives of other critters regardless of relationship. The concept of a veterinarian is uniquely human.

Yes, when I look around, I see the product of a Good GOD.

FWIW, I think there are better analogies if we're pointing out how awesome we are. On the scale of balance, humans are total jerks to the other species we share the planet with. We've exterminated or enslaved them wherever we've set foot and continue to do so on an industrial scale. A few vets don't count for much.

I'm sure we've all read the occasional article of animal altruism, dolphins rescuing sailors etc. Here's a few I've enjoyed:

Sperm whales chumming up with a dolphin suffering from scoliosis
A dog and an orphaned orangutan palling up
Hippos rescuing a gnu fro some asshole crocodile

I don't buy into the idea that empathy is the preserve of man.

I have to agree quite vehemently. I would, in fact, say the absolute opposite is true. Humans are horrifically cruel creatures, especially to those animals who cannot fight back. We lock them in cages, cut off their beaks, and grind baby chicks alive. We take animals more intelligent than dogs and stick them in pens so small they will never be able to turn around in their entire lives. electrocute, gas, and break necks of animals for fur. We perform muelsing, dock and castrate sheep for wool. Neither of these materials are required for survival in the modern age. And we not just let these cruelties happen but actually support these industries because...?

Likewise there are numerous other animals that take care of each other regardless of relationship. Many animals will adopt strays outside of their clan. Elephants famously take care of their orphaned calves. Chimpanzees mourn for dead social mates. Dogs routinely put their lives on the line to save their masters (or even strangers). Non-human animals are capable of caring beyond their own lives. Unlike humans however, non-human animals are not capable of cruelty solely for the sake of amusement. Humans kill for sport.

There are some great people in this world capable of empathy beyond description. But the vast majority are indifferent and idle in response to cruelty.

Please be aware, I am not saying that your points about your religion don't stand. Simply that your points about human empathy are quite flawed in my views.

Yet humans are the only species that has created Parks where humans provide protection to other species, that created environmental laws, that restrict themselves when it comes to treatment of other species and the environment itself.

[Cookies]

I have to agree quite vehemently. I would, in fact, say the absolute opposite is true. Humans are horrifically cruel creatures, especially to those animals who cannot fight back. We lock them in cages, cut off their beaks, and grind baby chicks alive. We take animals more intelligent than dogs and stick them in pens so small they will never be able to turn around in their entire lives. electrocute, gas, and break necks of animals for fur. We perform muelsing, dock and castrate sheep for wool. Neither of these materials are required for survival in the modern age. And we not just let these cruelties happen but actually support these industries because...?

Likewise there are numerous other animals that take care of each other regardless of relationship. Many animals will adopt strays outside of their clan. Elephants famously take care of their orphaned calves. Chimpanzees mourn for dead social mates. Dogs routinely put their lives on the line to save their masters (or even strangers). Non-human animals are capable of caring beyond their own lives. Unlike humans however, non-human animals are not capable of cruelty solely for the sake of amusement. Humans kill for sport.

There are some great people in this world capable of empathy beyond description. But the vast majority are indifferent and idle in response to cruelty.

Please be aware, I am not saying that your points about your religion don't stand. Simply that your points about human empathy are quite flawed in my views.

Studying animal behavior was my childhood passion. As an adult, we had three kittehs who were part of our family for nearly 20 years and who at times seemed 'human' and whom I still miss.

Animals commit genocide. They kill and eat their young. They kill for fun. Put two doves in a cage together and they will peck each other to death.

Nature is complex. It is what it is. Behavior is complex. The vast majority of humans are not indifferent but struggling to survive.

But only humans are capable of good and evil, because only humans understand the difference.

No, this is not true. Animals are capable of cruel actions. They are not capable of cruelty. They do not have the capability to understand their actions. Yes, animals eat their young. But this is as a way of survival. They kill to train, they kill to eat, they kill out of fear. We kill because hunting and stalking lesser animals is fun to us. We eat young animals for pleasure. We torture or animals before we eat them, and yes, some other animals do the same. The difference here is that we know better. A lion doesn't say to itself "Well... I could bite this zebras neck before I start eating its stomach so it dies more quickly... but no" Non-human animals act solely on instinct ingrained in them since the creation of their species and are incapable of higher thought. And even if there were an animal that were capable of understanding the difference, that wouldn't effect my point. Humans have the ability to think and act in contrast to pure instinct.

You say the vast majority of humans are not indifferent, but I don't see it. How many people spend even one day a week doing something for those who struggle? How many volunteer at an animal shelter once a month? How many donate canned goods? How many donate a dollar for the food bank when their cashier at the grocery store asks (I worked as a cashier and I can tell you it's about 2%).

The idea that we let the torture in farms happen, that we let others go hungry, that we allow muelsing because we are struggling to survive is nonsense. You don't need wool to survive. You can give a few hours of your time to someone or something who needs it. You don't need to support factory farming to survive. You don't need to go hunting to survive. And yet only 25% of my country volunteered last year. There are 3 billion people living in poverty. 10,000 species going extinct every year. Millions of acres of rainforest being cut down. 150 billion animals are tortured before they are killed for food every year.

And 25% of people think doing something is worth it. If that's not indifference than I don't know what is.

[Cookies]

Yet humans are the only species that has created Parks where humans provide protection to other species, that created environmental laws, that restrict themselves when it comes to treatment of other species and the environment itself.

But what does that have to do with anything? Humans are the only creatures with the ability to produce parks. And within these countries that create parks we still have abhorrent factory farming practices where animal welfare laws are ignored. Did you know that if you treat a dog the same way you treat a meat pig you would be arrested for animal cruelty? But we let it go because... bacon. We have circuses that cage animals, beat them, and break them so we can be entertained. Animal welfare laws are ignored because... well at least these people have jobs. We are bulldozing the last bits of forest and field so we can create houses, because we are running out of room. Because despite the fact that there are hundreds of millions of orphans who need homes, humans continue to procreate and create more humans without regard to anything other than themselves.

But because a handful of people had the foresight to create some parks (most of which are for human pleasure) somehow... I'm not actually sure what the point was.

[jar]

Yet humans are the only species that has created Parks where humans provide protection to other species, that created environmental laws, that restrict themselves when it comes to treatment of other species and the environment itself.

But what does that have to do with anything? Humans are the only creatures with the ability to produce parks. And within these countries that create parks we still have abhorrent factory farming practices where animal welfare laws are ignored. Did you know that if you treat a dog the same way you treat a meat pig you would be arrested for animal cruelty? But we let it go because... bacon. We have circuses that cage animals, beat them, and break them so we can be entertained. Animal welfare laws are ignored because... well at least these people have jobs. We are bulldozing the last bits of forest and field so we can create houses, because we are running out of room. Because despite the fact that there are hundreds of millions of orphans who need homes, humans continue to procreate and create more humans without regard to anything other than themselves.

But because a handful of people had the foresight to create some parks (most of which are for human pleasure) somehow... I'm not actually sure what the point was.

Well the point is really pretty simple.

Humans do create parks and reserves and have animal cruelty laws and I love bacon. Humans show concern for people they will likely never meet, that are outside their family, tribe, neighborhood, nation, vicinity. No other animal seems to do that.

Humans do those things.

All humans? No, but still it is humans that do those things.

Do we do enough? Perhaps not but fortunately we also have the capability of reason and being persuaded.

And let's be realistic. We are NOT bulldozing the last bits of forest and we actually plant more trees than we cut down.

Making absurd claims doesn't help at all and most animals procreate with less regard than even humans.

[Cookies]

Yet humans are the only species that has created Parks where humans provide protection to other species, that created environmental laws, that restrict themselves when it comes to treatment of other species and the environment itself.

But what does that have to do with anything? Humans are the only creatures with the ability to produce parks. And within these countries that create parks we still have abhorrent factory farming practices where animal welfare laws are ignored. Did you know that if you treat a dog the same way you treat a meat pig you would be arrested for animal cruelty? But we let it go because... bacon. We have circuses that cage animals, beat them, and break them so we can be entertained. Animal welfare laws are ignored because... well at least these people have jobs. We are bulldozing the last bits of forest and field so we can create houses, because we are running out of room. Because despite the fact that there are hundreds of millions of orphans who need homes, humans continue to procreate and create more humans without regard to anything other than themselves.

But because a handful of people had the foresight to create some parks (most of which are for human pleasure) somehow... I'm not actually sure what the point was.

Well the point is really pretty simple.

Humans do create parks and reserves and have animal cruelty laws and I love bacon. Humans show concern for people they will likely never meet, that are outside their family, tribe, neighborhood, nation, vicinity. No other animal seems to do that.

Humans do those things.

All humans? No, but still it is humans that do those things.

Do we do enough? Perhaps not but fortunately we also have the capability of reason and being persuaded.

And let's be realistic. We are NOT bulldozing the last bits of forest and we actually plant more trees than we cut down.

Making absurd claims doesn't help at all and most animals procreate with less regard than even humans.

There's no reason to be rude to me. Telling me I'm being absurd is why these types of threads never last long. You can disagree with someone and still be civil.

And as I've stated, Yes! Animals procreate and kill and maim just like humans. The difference is that we know better. Deer don't understand they're overpopulated. Humans see evidence of this everyday. Bears don't understand they don't have to kill that human that is just out camping.

Yes. Some humans show incredible empathy. Non-human animals are incapable of this, so the comparison is irrelevant.

This is the difference. You allow pigs to be kept in gestation crates their entire lives, to be electrocuted and inhumanely slaughtered because you like bacon. Not because you need it for survival. Not because your animal instincts tell you to do so. Because you like it. And that is the difference I was speaking about. Non-human animals don't know that eating the stomach of an animal before it bleeds out is cruelty. We know what we do is cruel, and we do it anyway. Because it's convenient. Because just not thinking about it is easier than trying to do something differently. Animal cruelty laws protecting animals with pet status negate this in your opinion?

As for cutting down trees. Yes, we are absolutely ridding ourselves of remaining habitats. I am very active with Defenders of Wildlife and WWF and I see people everyday who try get around zoning laws to build on animal habitats. I see the destruction of habitat so we can have palm oil and lumber. As people are becoming more conscious in these areas many companies are beginning to plant trees for each one they cut down. But yet we still destroy millions of acres of forest a year. We are running out of almost every natural resource we have. But that doesn't stop us.

[Manny]

Cookie, your passion for the advocacy of all that is on God's green earth--that is not human--is much appreciated, and I HONESTLY mean this. But jar stated "making absurd claims", and not "you are being absurd".