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Thread: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

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    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Back to ecclesiastical matters & the chap above, I've never really understood where he stands on animals. They don't get into heaven... but they weren't kicked out of the garden of Eden either. So what are they doing here on Earth? I'm not being facile, honestly.
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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flounder View Post
    Back to ecclesiastical matters & the chap above, I've never really understood where he stands on animals. They don't get into heaven... but they weren't kicked out of the garden of Eden either. So what are they doing here on Earth? I'm not being facile, honestly.
    If by the "chap above" you mean me, my belief is that if there is an afterlife then anything that ever lived will likely be represented in that afterlife and regarding religious representation, that there will likely be far more atheists, agnostic, Buddhists, Taoists, Muslims, Jews, Satanists, Animists, followers of Confucius, Mencius, the Norse, Greek, Roman religions than there will be Christians represented.

    The story of the Garden of Eden is actually one of my favorite subjects back when I was teaching adult and child Sunday school.

    If you really stop and examine the story found in Genesis 2&3 is appears to be a "Just so story" that tries to explain why we fear snakes, why childbirth seems more painful for humans than other critters, why we farm instead of being hunter gatherers, and two particular things, why women should be subject to the man (remember it reflects the mythos of the day) and why we live in a moral based society instead of an amoral one.

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    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    If by the "chap above" you mean me...
    I'm betting he didn't, but thanks for jumping in!
    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Yep, I mean the boss, the big man.
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    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manny View Post
    Cookie, your passion for the advocacy of all that is on God's green earth--that is not human--is much appreciated, and I HONESTLY mean this. But jar stated "making absurd claims", and not "you are being absurd".
    Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see it as much of a distinction. The difference between "making absurd claims" and "being absurd" is semantics. Do reasonable people make absurd claims?

    I think people on this thread, regardless of whether they agree or disagree with his opinions, have been mostly tolerant. So when I state my beliefs, to be greeted with 'you're making absurd claims' without even remotely taking my statements into consideration is quite rude. I'm sure he would not appreciate me responding to his take on god with. "You're making absurd claims" So when I am speaking about something that I have made my mission in life, something I obviously care very deeply about. I would appreciate a little more civility.

    He stated "I believe ignorance not religion is behind most evil." Yet he let his ignorance drive his response to me. If you want people to respect your beliefs. A good place to start is respecting the beliefs of others. It's clear that my points are not going to be given the benefit of even a small thought, so I'll leave.

  7. #46
    Senior Member Jon Szanto's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flounder View Post
    Yep, I mean the boss, the big man.
    Ok, now you're really confusing things! Which one?

    "When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
    and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

    ~ Benjamin Franklin

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flounder View Post
    Yep, I mean the boss, the big man.
    Okay. Gottcha. But again, the reason given in the story found in Genesis 2&3 is covered. The God character in that story was afraid that since humans had acquired the great gift and responsibility of knowing the difference between right and wrong, good and evil, they might eat from the Tree of Life and so live forever.

    There's nothing in that story about any afterlife.

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    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Cookies, I think the distinction is that your point is considered valid (Man is responsible for deforestation, city sprawl, 'illegal' logging by his own definition, encroachment of greenbelt lands, etc) but that the hyperbole you've employed to deliver that point is absurd, in that we are not yet down to the last bits of field and forest yet.
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    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    my belief is that if there is an afterlife then anything that ever lived will likely be represented in that afterlife and regarding religious representation, that there will likely be far more atheists, agnostic, Buddhists, Taoists, Muslims, Jews, Satanists, Animists, followers of Confucius, Mencius, the Norse, Greek, Roman religions than there will be Christians represented.
    So long as we're getting into syncretism, I'd like to give a shout out to the Jainists. I consider Jainism the most benevolent religion to date.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    The story of the Garden of Eden is actually one of my favorite subjects back when I was teaching adult and child Sunday school.

    If you really stop and examine the story found in Genesis 2&3 is appears to be a "Just so story" that tries to explain why we fear snakes, why childbirth seems more painful for humans than other critters, why we farm instead of being hunter gatherers, and two particular things, why women should be subject to the man (remember it reflects the mythos of the day) and why we live in a moral based society instead of an amoral one.
    This is where I fail as a proper Christian, where allegory begins and ends.
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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

    So long as we're getting into syncretism, I'd like to give a shout out to the Jainists. I consider Jainism the most benevolent religion to date.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    The story of the Garden of Eden is actually one of my favorite subjects back when I was teaching adult and child Sunday school.

    If you really stop and examine the story found in Genesis 2&3 is appears to be a "Just so story" that tries to explain why we fear snakes, why childbirth seems more painful for humans than other critters, why we farm instead of being hunter gatherers, and two particular things, why women should be subject to the man (remember it reflects the mythos of the day) and why we live in a moral based society instead of an amoral one.
    This is where I fail as a proper Christian, where allegory begins and ends.
    Not sure what you mean with the last sentence but agree I certainly should have included Jainism and Hinduism in general.

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    Senior Member drgoretex's Avatar
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    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Well, I must say that this has thus far been a rather enjoyable read. Thanks, Jar, for initiating the discussion, and Mods for allowing it. Very refreshing to hear discussion of matters of faith -something that is most dear to our hearts (whether it is a set of beliefs that is commonly called a 'Faith', or a set of beliefs that is commonly felt to be a 'lack of faith', but which is in a sense, also a faith nonetheless). Having to utterly avoid topics like these, while certainly 'safe' for avoiding the strong feelings and words, has always seemed so smothering and artificial, like avoiding the elephant in the room.

    Anyhow, carry on.

    Ken

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    Default Re: Is God good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookies View Post
    I have to agree quite vehemently. I would, in fact, say the absolute opposite is true. Humans are horrifically cruel creatures, especially to those animals who cannot fight back.
    That would include everyone here, including you and I, correct? That is assuming we are all human.

    We lock them in cages, cut off their beaks, and grind baby chicks alive. We take animals more intelligent than dogs and stick them in pens so small they will never be able to turn around in their entire lives. electrocute, gas, and break necks of animals for fur. We perform muelsing, dock and castrate sheep for wool.
    Well, I have never done any of those things. I guess that means I am subhuman.

    Unlike humans however, non-human animals are not capable of cruelty solely for the sake of amusement. Humans kill for sport.
    What about cats that toy with mice before killing them? I doubt the mice enjoy that very much. And what about raccoons, which will go into a henhouse or pigeon loft and kill every living thing there before running off with just one dead animal? Chimpanzees are capable of uncompromising brutality and vengeance. Violence and savagery are not limited to homo sapiens.

    And all humans kill for sport and never for food?

    There are some great people in this world capable of empathy beyond description. But the vast majority are indifferent and idle in response to cruelty.
    If that misanthropic view of the world were true, our species would have destroyed itself a long time ago. There are many people in this world capable of great empathy and kindness. Unless one hangs around with the wrong sort of people, it is readily apparent that most folks deplore cruelty.

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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Is God good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookies View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookies View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post

    Yet humans are the only species that has created Parks where humans provide protection to other species, that created environmental laws, that restrict themselves when it comes to treatment of other species and the environment itself.
    But what does that have to do with anything? Humans are the only creatures with the ability to produce parks. And within these countries that create parks we still have abhorrent factory farming practices where animal welfare laws are ignored. Did you know that if you treat a dog the same way you treat a meat pig you would be arrested for animal cruelty? But we let it go because... bacon. We have circuses that cage animals, beat them, and break them so we can be entertained. Animal welfare laws are ignored because... well at least these people have jobs. We are bulldozing the last bits of forest and field so we can create houses, because we are running out of room. Because despite the fact that there are hundreds of millions of orphans who need homes, humans continue to procreate and create more humans without regard to anything other than themselves.

    But because a handful of people had the foresight to create some parks (most of which are for human pleasure) somehow... I'm not actually sure what the point was.
    Well the point is really pretty simple.

    Humans do create parks and reserves and have animal cruelty laws and I love bacon. Humans show concern for people they will likely never meet, that are outside their family, tribe, neighborhood, nation, vicinity. No other animal seems to do that.

    Humans do those things.

    All humans? No, but still it is humans that do those things.

    Do we do enough? Perhaps not but fortunately we also have the capability of reason and being persuaded.

    And let's be realistic. We are NOT bulldozing the last bits of forest and we actually plant more trees than we cut down.

    Making absurd claims doesn't help at all and most animals procreate with less regard than even humans.
    There's no reason to be rude to me. Telling me I'm being absurd is why these types of threads never last long. You can disagree with someone and still be civil.

    And as I've stated, Yes! Animals procreate and kill and maim just like humans. The difference is that we know better. Deer don't understand they're overpopulated. Humans see evidence of this everyday. Bears don't understand they don't have to kill that human that is just out camping.

    Yes. Some humans show incredible empathy. Non-human animals are incapable of this, so the comparison is irrelevant.

    This is the difference. You allow pigs to be kept in gestation crates their entire lives, to be electrocuted and inhumanely slaughtered because you like bacon. Not because you need it for survival. Not because your animal instincts tell you to do so. Because you like it. And that is the difference I was speaking about. Non-human animals don't know that eating the stomach of an animal before it bleeds out is cruelty. We know what we do is cruel, and we do it anyway. Because it's convenient. Because just not thinking about it is easier than trying to do something differently. Animal cruelty laws protecting animals with pet status negate this in your opinion?

    As for cutting down trees. Yes, we are absolutely ridding ourselves of remaining habitats. I am very active with Defenders of Wildlife and WWF and I see people everyday who try get around zoning laws to build on animal habitats. I see the destruction of habitat so we can have palm oil and lumber. As people are becoming more conscious in these areas many companies are beginning to plant trees for each one they cut down. But yet we still destroy millions of acres of forest a year. We are running out of almost every natural resource we have. But that doesn't stop us.
    As what would be termed a "rancher" in the US I'm fully aware of the issues you mention and the emotions that they bring forth. The Aust. cattle live export industry is constantly having animal cruelty issues raised, mainly by those opposed to it selectively finding poor end users operations and overlooking the better facilities, very effectively btw but sometimes at a very high cost ( some years ago the Aust. Govt. reacted to an Animals Australia clip and temporarily banned exports to Indonesia who promptly told us to "go away", the end result of this and less than ideal seasonal conditions was hundreds of thousands of cattle died of starvation with no market, a high cost in human terms as well). How an animal is slaughtered depends on many things such as facilities, religion, need and culture. Without doubt humane slaughter is the aim if animals are to part of our food chain ( and that's the case in Aust.), still to those who view the animals solely as food this seems less of a consideration. Likewise caged animals/birds are highly emotive issues with free range eggs v caged eggs being an example, caged egg production in Aust. looks set to increase for one reason, biosecurity, as large free range facilities are more susceptible to "bird flue" from the wild bird population.

    As for your previous comments on sheep, I can say that muelsing achieved far greater animal welfare outcomes than it causes especially where sheep run in large areas as being eaten alive by maggots isn't very good either , I realize it may not look nice but the reality is only skin is removed, much like skinning your knee and while I would have preferred not to perform it the animal welfare benefits justified it ( I no longer run wool sheep and don't perform muelsing anymore). Wool is a natural fibre, reducing fossil fuel usage (oil) reduces synthetic fibre production as well so natural fibres may well have a greater future than at present and, of course, all wool sheep become part of the food chain in the end. If you take a broader view of wool production it also includes a food component and increase the sheeps longevity as opposed to meat sheep production, so not all bad for the sheep. Some procedures such as castration are a necessary procedure, that's the reality when you work with large numbers. Often overlooked is that most who raise animals are interested in their welfare and healthy animals make more money.

    No doubt natural habitats are declining and as population grows the pressure increases, less people goes a long way to solving a lot of these issues but that's not going to happen in my lifetime. Here they've tried various schemes and legislation to reduce tree clearing, an issue to me as it limits my land usage given my family has managed our property timber resources with an eye to timber sustainability. In a bizarre twist I could gain "carbon credits" by planting trees yet not for having maintained a healthy tree population for a century!! I'd have to clear the trees I've got ( get fined for that) and plant new ones. Personally I think in the long term in a number of countries it'll be a compromise between "green" environmental groups and land users/owners to achieve "best possible" outcomes that increase food production while maintain as much diversity as possible. Probably a "pipe dream" but the Aust. experiment with expecting farmers to bear all the financial cost to provide a community benefit is not a sustainable model.

    You've touched a lot of issues that need to be addressed in a positive way. Without a doubt some animal practices need improvement and some practices need to be better understood.

    Regards
    Hugh

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  20. #54
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    Default Re: Is God good?

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    The Aust. cattle live export industry is constantly having animal cruelty issues raised, mainly by those opposed to it selectively finding poor end users operations
    I think I know what you're referring to, couldn't watch the footage. Sickening savagery.
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    Default Re: Is God good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flounder View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    The Aust. cattle live export industry is constantly having animal cruelty issues raised, mainly by those opposed to it selectively finding poor end users operations
    I think I know what you're referring to, couldn't watch the footage. Sickening savagery.
    The "infamous" Indonesian clip. While it occurred there are some lingering doubts whether this was "normal" operating procedure or the men playing up to the camera and/or the possible exchange of money given the clip was done by a professional outfit from the UK ( so I'm led to believe). Still it should never have occurred regardless of how the clip was obtained. Anyway that one clip ended up causing unimaginable damage mainly from a Govt. in deep trouble seeing a ban as a vote winner, the lack of a plan B....what to do with all those cattle...showed how stupid a decision it was. To add insult a state owned Indonesian company then purchased a number of cattle runs from those "busted" by the ban !! In reality no winners only losers.

    Regards
    Hugh

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