Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 56

Thread: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

  1. #1
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    4,045
    Thanks
    479
    Thanked 3,712 Times in 1,610 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    I was born into a religious southern family. My granddad on my mother's side was active in the Presbyterian Church while on my father's side they were active in the Episcopal Church. Growing up, bible stories and bible readings were a major source of entertainment and Jesus Loves the Little Children was as familiar as Itsy Bitsy Spider.

    When the war ended and dad came back from overseas we moved back north to Baltimore and to Prince of Peace Church. Joe Wood was the main Church influence in those years. He was the priest there, holding services on Sundays in a big old granite church that sat on the corner. The alley behind the church held a car repair shop called Gasoline Alley, and a man who had a zoo in his back yard with cages of monkeys, birds and real alligators and after services we could run down the alley and look over the fence at the wondrous things, cars disassembled and flashes of color as the birds flew about in their big cages, a world of sounds and sights and smells far different from the church above.

    The Church itself was cool and dark when you entered, the sun through the stained glass windows played and danced across the dark wooden pews as clouds raced across the morning skies. As the pews filled the temperature rose and you reached for one of the paper fans that sat behind the red Book of Common Prayer or black Hymnal. They had a scene and verse from the bible on one side, advertisements for funeral homes or restaurant on the other. Some said "In Memory of so-and-so. Living with Jesus and in the heart of his family and friends.", and when you asked who so-and-so was your mom would tell you to hush.

    As you grew older you were expected to attend classes leading to Confirmation. Joe taught all the classes, and he explained that when you were little, and baptized, your parents and god-parents had taken responsibility for your education and acts, but that now that you were growing up, it was time that YOU took responsibility for yourself.

    He also said that it was something to really think about. He said you were confirming, or that you might also find that you were not sure or ready to confirm, what it really was that you believed. He said he would be happier if we didn't get confirmed because we didn't understand things than if we did get confirmed just because it was what our parents wanted.

    Part of the process, in addition to classes were days when we got to sit down with Joe and just talk. He had a bucket with cokes and Nehi orange and grape soda and we'd sit side by side at a table and just talk. I remember telling him that "Jesus died for my sins and so if I believed in Him I was saved." and his laugh before he said, "Well, then I guess all this is a waste of time isn't it?"

    I must have looked confused because he told me to finish my drink and we'd talk more about it the next week.

    That was the moment when I think I first began to get some inkling, some hint of what Christianity was all about.

    By our next meeting, I was still totally confused. I asked Joe what I should think, and he told me right away that only I could decide that. Even if I decided not to get confirmed, I was growing up and so it was time I started deciding what I was going to do and believe, and not have others decide it for me.

    Then he told me a story.

    Long before he had been a missionary in China. The village he was in was very poor, the crops had failed and people were near starving. One of the warlords showed up and told the people, if they would abandon their current master and join him he would see they got food. Just believe in him and all will be okay. Any that did not believe in him would be left to starve to death.

    The warlord could have saved everyone, he had wealth and more than enough food, but instead he wanted to save only those who would follow him.
    “What do you think of the warlord?”, he asked?

    The orange Nehi was cold, and I tasted it on the front of my tongue and in my nose. So different from coke, or the grape Nehi and the questions ran back and forth just behind my eyes.

    A week passed and once again I sat down with Father Joe. “What did you decide about the warlord?”, he asked.

    “Did he really have enough food for everybody?”, I asked in return.

    “Yes he did.”, Said Father Joe.

    “Then he should have saved everybody, not just those that believed in him.”, I answered.

    I was confirmed that year. The Bishop came in as always for the confirmation service. It was majestic, the great pipe organ filling the church with music that shimmered and shined like fine crystal, the colors of vestments and flags, the flowers and their scent, the breeze that came through the louvered windows, the bands of light through the stained glass windows competing with the flowers on the women’s hats.

    The front pews were reserved for the little kids and they paraded in, class by class, looking around for mom and dad and waving shyly when they found them in the crowd. Then those of us who were to be confirmed marched in to take our place between the kids and the adults.

    Everyone stood up and the Bishop intoned “Blessed by God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”, and a small voice from one of the front rows was heard . . .

    “Why is he wearing funny clothes and a dress?”

    The Bishop looked back at Joe Wood, and then turned to continue when Joe said, “Great Question. Everybody, let’s stop for a second and let the little children come up.”

    The service stopped as Joe walked down to the steps at the railing. He motioned to the Bishop to come on down and to the teachers to bring the kids up.
    Joe and the Bishop sat on the steps there at the railing while the kids came up, several vying to see who got to sit in Joe’s lap. Everything stopped while Joe and the Bishop explained to the kids what the various vestments were, what they were called, why they were worn, how even the knots had special meaning. The Bishop let several kids try on the miter and all of them to look at his ring. He even got up (with some difficulty) and went to get his Crosier, his shepherd’s staff.

    After answering their questions Joe said, “Okay, everybody back to the pews.”, and he and the Bishop got ready to begin the service again, when another small voice called out, “Can we sing Jesus Loves you this I know?”

    So we did.

    After that the service picked up where it had almost begun and it moved right along. We had the collect and the readings, then the presentation of the candidates. The Bishop began the questioning, “Do you reaffirm your renunciation of evil?”

    “I do,” we replied.

    “Do you renew your commitment to Jesus Christ?”

    “I do, and with God's grace I will follow him as my Savior and Lord. “

    The Bishop then turned to the audience and asked, “Will you who witness these vows do all in your power to support these persons in their life in Christ?”

    “We will.”, came the reply.

    We, the candidates and all of the people then repeated those Baptismal vows that our parents and God-parents had taken for us so long before.


    Bishop Do you believe in God the Father?
    People I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
    Bishop Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
    People I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
    He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
    He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
    He descended to the dead.
    On the third day he rose again.
    He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
    Bishop Do you believe in God the Holy Spirit?
    People I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting.
    Bishop Will you continue in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers?
    People I will, with God's help.
    Bishop Will you persevere in resisting evil, and, whenever you fall into sin, repent and return to the Lord?
    People I will, with God's help.
    Bishop Will you proclaim by word and example the Good News of God in Christ?
    People I will, with God's help.
    Bishop Will you seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself?
    People I will, with God's help.
    Bishop Will you strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being?
    People I will, with God's help.

    Then the Bishop laid hands on each of us, and in a soft voice, leaning down toward each one, “Strengthen, O Lord, your servant N. with your Holy Spirit; empower him for your service; and sustain him all the days of his life. Amen.”

    I remember on the drive home, all of us packed together in the car, mom and dad in the front seat and IIRC at the time, about 4 kids stuffed in the back, one of my parents asked me, “Well, how do you feel now?”

    “I think I can do what I need to do.” I said, “I know that you and GOD will help.”

    A few years later my parents decided to send me off to a Christian Boarding School. One day we drove up for the interview. The school was located at the top of a steep hill, and just around the bend at the top of the hill. We drove in through white gates with a Gatehouse on each side, down a driveway lined by small trees to a circle before the big white mansion. On the left about halfway down the drive was another white building, it’s green roof matching the roof on the mansion.
    We were met at the mansion by a gentleman who introduced himself as Bob French. He was not a tall man, and not as old as my dad, and he said he taught English and lived in one of the gatehouses. He showed us around the mansion, where we would eat, where the infirmary was, then took us on a tour of the grounds. The dorm was another small white building with a green roof, then up the hill to the building I’d seen as we drove in. It was the class rooms for the upper school, and at one time had been the stables for the estate.

    After the tour was finished, they asked me if I wanted to go to school there and I said “Sure.”

    On the long drive home my mom asked me what I had really thought about the school.

    “Did you notice the piles of books, clothes, lacrosse sticks and stuff that were just sitting around?”, I answered, “I think I’d like a place where you could just leave stuff lying around and know that no one will touch it.”

    The next fall I went off to school. I had a new pair of pants and a sport coat and blue shirts and a blue sweater. I was scared, and excited, and St. Paul’s had three inviolable rules, you will not lie, cheat or steal or tolerate someone who did. Oh, you could get in trouble for other things, demerits soon became a reality, but lying, cheating or stealing simply were not tolerated. And the students themselves were really the ones that enforced those standards. It was an Honor System.

    Living at a boarding school was a new experience. As one of the new young kids you shared a room with three other guys, and life was pretty fully organized. We got up in the morning, dress was shirt and tie, and either a sweater or blazer, and breakfast was at a table by form with the Head Master and most of the faculty. We’d start with grace, and I often prayed that I’d be able to find an egg that was cooked hard as a rock with none of the running yellow part. Day after day GOD watched over me (or maybe the fact that Mary, who did the cooking heard me complaining) and every day I found at least one egg that was really cooked.

    After breakfast it was up the hill to Chapel. Every day all the boarders started the day with a short Chapel service, and many of the day students would drift in as well. We also had Sacred Studies as one of the regular classes and every Wednesday a formal Chapel service for all the students. Religion was a normal part of daily life and often included in many of the other classes as well. In math we touched on the contributions made by Islam, in History we touched on the influence of religion in world events, in Biology we looked at the contributions of Mendel and the problems caused by religious restrictions on exploratory anatomy and how that slowed down the advance of medicine.

    But the school day came to an end and most of our time was outside of class.

    Dark comes early in northern Maryland, and so it was inevitable that most of the time we entertained ourselves. What can be more entertaining to young men than big issues. Somehow, GOD and religion and mankind’s place in all of this seemed to be a regular topic of discussion. The evenings were long and the conversations often heated. When the weather allowed we’d sit out on the porch, arguing while we waited for our turn up on the ping-pong table, when bad we’d sit around in the front room, or visit one of the Master’s houses where we could huddle in front of the open fire letting ideas rise like sparks from the logs.
    It was there, in those long conversations where some of the questions raised by Father Joe and my parents began to get resolved. It was a period of opening horizons, my every belief being challenged by minds as quick and intensive as my own, by experience far greater than my own and by whole new moral systems, the Works of Mencius, the Gnostic Gospels, the philosophies of Greece and Germany, the writings of Thoreau and Frost and Twain and Lewis and Tolkien and Hemingway and Camus and Seller and Yeatman, the moral vison of Steinbeck and Woody Guthrie.

    It was when some of the things became clear.

    A GOD that chooses who will be saved doesn’t make sense. A GOD that creates all and then goes through and picks and chooses who will be saved is just plain cruel and arbitrary and not something to be worshiped.

    A GOD that wants to be worshiped is just too silly a thought. Maybe some picayune God might worry about what folk thought of Her, like the little girl who worries that her corsage might not be right, too big, or too small, or the guy that worries about his tie not being in style or that people think he looks funny, but GOD cannot be so insecure.

    The idea of “Once saved always saved” just made no sense. That’s one of those simplistic ideas that gives folk an out. “Anyone who does something really wrong obviously wasn’t saved in the first place”, or so their argument went. That just felt way to much like a copout and just another example of mental gymnastics, a way of cheating and making excuses.

    I think maybe the Honor System was beginning to change from just a set of rules to a way of life.

    It was in the second year at St. Paul’s that I went back and really started rereading the Bible and listening to what was in there. That year Mr. French took a bunch of us boarders out one evening to look through his telescope.

    The universe got much larger that night, far bigger than the imagination of one teenager, and old perceptions fell away. For the first time I saw a galaxy, not a star, but millions, maybe billions of stars.

    That summer I got to spend some time exploring some of the old worn foothills of Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia and West Virginia. Age was everywhere, in the worn groove in the rock above the pond where Turkey Run cascaded down into the pool where my sister fed the Native Trout, in the layers exposed in the cuts that had been made to widen Route 40 and in the sidings along Hornets Nest Road where it wandered over the hills. There was age in the fossil shells sticking out of the Calvert Cliffs and the giant sharks teeth I found there.

    The world got old that summer and the universe got big, very big, awesome and exciting.

    Life at a boarding school was amazing. For the first time in my life I was immersed in a culture where everyone was as smart as me and most far smarter. No one, not students, not faculty accepted anything simply on belief. They challenged everything. And that challenge was pervasive. In Sacred Studies we had to build the case for theism, to prove that GOD did exist. Once we could defend that our arguments were torn to shreds and we had to build the case for atheism, that GOD did not exist. In turn, those arguments were challenged and refuted.

    The discussions with the other kids were the most challenging. The Masters were often Socratic, asking questions to get YOU to think. The other boarders though gave no slack, took no prisoners. You either supported your position or it was toast. It wasn’t important what the position was, no one cared whether or not you agreed with them, but by GOD you better be able to support what YOU believed.

    Life went on. Later in life I got to live all over the United States. I lived in Maryland and Virginia and North Carolina and South Carolina and Georgia and Pennsylvania and Arizona and Texas and California. I got to see old rocks and new mountains and find fossils and explore canyons and see flash floods and experience earthquakes and tornadoes and hurricanes. I got to meet and work with some of the brightest folk around, ones that constantly challenged me to do new things, learn new things, to grow. I got to spend a couple decades in the company of biologists and in the company of computer folk that were pushing the limits of what could be done. I got to help found a whole new industry, to get in early when no one knew what could be done and when nothing was impossible, to help create the foundation that others later built upon.

    Through all of my life, I was blessed to be in the company of people that were running forward, people who created, people who questioned.

    Over time I realized that those lessons learned from Joe Wood, from my Parents, from the other kids at the school were correct.

    In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth.
    GOD looked on what he had created and found it was Good.
    Through a gift from GOD mankind was given the ability to know what is right from what is wrong.
    GOD charges us to try to do Right, and to try not to do Wrong.
    GOD is not cruel.
    We are not condemned.
    GOD chose ALL people.
    We will be judged based on our own behavior.
    Any other GOD seems small and evil.

  2. The Following 25 Users Say Thank You to jar For This Useful Post:

    + Show/Hide list of the thanked

    Annie (March 8th, 2014), auto winder (March 8th, 2014), Beowulf50 (March 10th, 2014), Carole (March 9th, 2014), cwent2 (March 8th, 2014), drgoretex (March 22nd, 2014), Flounder (March 8th, 2014), Hawk (March 12th, 2014), HughC (April 1st, 2014), Jon Szanto (March 7th, 2014), kia (March 8th, 2014), KrazyIvan (March 11th, 2014), LagNut (March 8th, 2014), Manny (March 7th, 2014), mastersmith (March 13th, 2014), orfew (March 8th, 2014), Pens&Lit (March 19th, 2014), Sailor Kenshin (March 8th, 2014), SeminarianMike (February 8th, 2016), Sketchy (March 13th, 2014), spotted and speckled (March 8th, 2014), tandaina (March 7th, 2014), tomgartin (April 4th, 2014), Tony Rex (March 8th, 2014), welch (March 23rd, 2014)

  3. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Kent UK
    Posts
    548
    Thanks
    25
    Thanked 172 Times in 90 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Is this an appropriate place for storeys of people and their Imaginary Friends

    If there is a god then he/she/it is the most evil entity to ever exist, and as religion is always behind the vast majority of the world evil it is about time that all religion was banned world wide, For Religion is Evil

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Paul-H For This Useful Post:

    jar (March 8th, 2014), mmahany (March 8th, 2014), Murfie (April 9th, 2014)

  5. #3
    Senior Member Tony Rex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    508
    Thanks
    596
    Thanked 652 Times in 243 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Another enjoyable read, jar. Thanks for sharing your personal journey. We all have one, or none. I respect either way, even apparently some would not. I reckon FPGeeks lounge is big enough to accomodate all.

    May I suggest FPN lounge for those who can't tolerate this?

  6. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Tony Rex For This Useful Post:

    cwent2 (March 8th, 2014), KrazyIvan (March 11th, 2014), Manny (March 8th, 2014), Mortiana27 (March 11th, 2014), nekosan (March 8th, 2014), Waski_the_Squirrel (March 11th, 2014)

  7. #4
    Senior Member kia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    257
    Thanks
    503
    Thanked 287 Times in 113 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    It's the perfect place for any story of any person and their friends, real or imagined.

    Sharing is what makes us, or breaks us. It molds us, or tears us. What we see, what we learn, what we believe, is all through sharing and debating and questioning of thought, emotion, ideas, tradition, new paths, buried in the sand or far above us in the heavens. Questions are good, they lead to answers for ourselves. What I believe is not what someone standing next to me believes, but we all believe in something, even if nothing. And I believe in your right to believe as you choose, and in my right to believe as I choose.

  8. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to kia For This Useful Post:

    Carole (March 9th, 2014), Crazyorange (March 11th, 2014), cwent2 (March 8th, 2014), Hawk (March 12th, 2014), Jon Szanto (March 8th, 2014), Lbravo (March 27th, 2014), luminesce (March 8th, 2014), Manny (March 8th, 2014), MY63 (March 8th, 2014)

  9. #5
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    4,045
    Thanks
    479
    Thanked 3,712 Times in 1,610 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul-H View Post
    Is this an appropriate place for storeys of people and their Imaginary Friends

    If there is a god then he/she/it is the most evil entity to ever exist, and as religion is always behind the vast majority of the world evil it is about time that all religion was banned world wide, For Religion is Evil
    An interesting position. I personally agree that the god, particularly the Christian god, as often marketed would be truly evil if it were to exist. But I find ignorance not religion is behind most evil.

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to jar For This Useful Post:

    Crazyorange (March 11th, 2014), cwent2 (March 8th, 2014), HughC (April 1st, 2014), kia (March 8th, 2014)

  11. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    276
    Thanks
    236
    Thanked 152 Times in 77 Posts
    Rep Power
    13

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    I am not a religious person, but I did greatly appreciate your story. It seems to me it described the processes of learning and growth very clearly. I respect that.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to orfew For This Useful Post:

    Crazyorange (March 11th, 2014)

  13. #7
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    4,045
    Thanks
    479
    Thanked 3,712 Times in 1,610 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Is God good?

    A very good friend asked:
    “Ok, for the sake of allowing you to articulate your liberal and progressive theology (which I very much would like to hear) how is God's goodness evidenced by my fundamentalist Christian nephew contracting insulin dependent diabetes at the age of ten? “

    That is a great question and goes to the heart of the issue. Why do bad things happen?

    This may seem like I'm rambling but honest there is a point to all this and I'll return to your nephew before the end of this post. But first, let's step back a short way in time.

    About 65 million years ago an asteroid smashed down into the Gulf of Mexico a few hundred miles from where I live. That was a momentous event. For a long period of time the dinosaurs had been the dominate life form on the planet. They had been very successful and lasted far longer than we have and had expanded into all of the niches that humans now occupy. They lived in warm and cold, high and low, forest and plain, swamp and meadow.

    The asteroid strike 65 million years ago must be considered a very bad thing for the dinosaurs. So we can ask the same question as about your nephew. Why do bad things happen?

    Well, here is the fundamentalists chance to show the big picture, how it was bad for the dinos but good for us, right? Well, no, that's not the argument I hope to make.

    Although the changes after the asteroid strike did open up environmental opportunities that mammals expanded into, I do not see the strike as some act of GOD to bring about humans. Instead, it was a normal result of the universe we live in, one of the random and unfeeling incidents we have both mentioned before.

    Basically, over the last 65 million years or so all of the evolution of the mammals has happened. That's pretty quick, a rush job as it were, and it shows. If you look at the result (and IMHO this single fact is enough to blow any thoughts of Intellegent Design out of the water), what evolved are critters that are just barely good enough. This is true of every mammal out there. None of them are really well designed overall. They are all a collection of mismatched parts and Rube Goldberg engineering. They get sick. They break. They wear out way too soon.

    The Fundamentalist might say, "Well, that's all after the fall and before then man was perfect." Fine, they may believe that but frankly, there is no evidence to support such a contention and trying to do so simply opens up way to many other issues. The result of such mental gymnastics is a theology that is an even bigger Rube Goldberg than life as evolved.

    Back towards the topic.

    If we look at life today we find similar effects and issues regardless of species. Animals and plants get sick. They have systems that don't function or they break. It's pretty normal.

    But finally, this gives me the opportunity to point out some of the things I see that show GOD is good.

    First, the system.

    IMHO GOD designed a universe that is, unlike the individuals in it, self healing. We can see this at every scale, every level. If we look out way beyond our local neighborhood we can see stars exploding, galaxies colliding. Yet the result of such catastrophes is not an end but a beginning. New stars and galaxies form, new elements are made, we get the iron that forms the core of our planet and our very existence from such events.

    Closer to home we can see the same thing. The catastrophe 65 millions years ago was healed. The system is designed to assure that if life exists, it will evolve to fill the available environments regardless of what they are. If tomorrow something happened that wiped all mammals from the face of the earth, something else will evolve to fill the world again.

    Even if all life were destroyed, it's likely it would start again. It certainly happened at least one time before and most likely, several times. Since we know that life began even if we do not know how, there is no reason to believe it could not happen again.

    So the system GOD created is pretty good. It works well and seems to be self healing.

    Now let's return to your nephew. He is typical of all the life we see around us. Every living thing we've found so far is subject to disease, to injury, to the limitations of the individual critter. Animals break bones. They get sick. They wear out. Their systems vary from individual to individual.

    Unfortunately, your nephew has diabetes. I'm sorry. I wish it were otherwise.

    There is one thing though that also brings me back to the Good GOD, something I've mentioned before. It's something unique to humans that I see as evidence of that Good GOD.

    We can treat his diabetes. In fact, we are at the point where we can do more for him than ever before. And there is a very good chance that in the not too distant future we may be able to prevent such incidents.

    Humans, through the scope, extent and intent of their capabilities can do things to help. If he were any other mammal, suffering any disease or breakage, he would be on his own. The other primates do not set and brace broken limbs. They do not treat the diseases that inflict others of their kind, much less other species.

    That brings me to the fourth attribute that I've mentioned in the past, Empathy.

    Humans have empathy that extends beyond their immediate family, their species, their clan, their nation. They are the only critters that actually intentionally try to improve the lives of other critters regardless of relationship. The concept of a veterinarian is uniquely human.

    Yes, when I look around, I see the product of a Good GOD.

  14. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to jar For This Useful Post:

    Annie (March 11th, 2014), Beowulf50 (March 10th, 2014), cwent2 (March 8th, 2014), drgoretex (March 22nd, 2014), Hawk (September 14th, 2014), HughC (April 1st, 2014), johniem (March 18th, 2014), Jon Szanto (March 11th, 2014), kia (March 8th, 2014), Manny (March 9th, 2014)

  15. #8
    Senior Member kia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    257
    Thanks
    503
    Thanked 287 Times in 113 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    I wish I could click "Thanks" many times, Jar. You so eloquently - and patiently - put into words the thoughts many are unable to express adequately, regardless of subject or media. Now that I do have the time I'd always wished I had before, I hope I can also achieve this level of giving for my own journey.

  16. #9
    Senior Member Flounder's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    374
    Thanks
    285
    Thanked 402 Times in 161 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    I'm not religious, I consider myself a cultural Christian. At the same time, I do believe the world would have been a better place if Julian the Apostate had better luck, or had Justinian left the philosophical schools open. I very much enjoyed the story as an example of the benefits of a strong family unit and growing up in a cohesive society.
    Latest pen related post @ flounders-mindthots.blogspot.com : '70s Pilot Elite pocket pen review

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Flounder For This Useful Post:

    Annie (March 11th, 2014)

  18. #10
    Senior Member Manny's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    @home
    Posts
    356
    Thanks
    191
    Thanked 584 Times in 212 Posts
    Rep Power
    12

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    *It's only for a moment you were mine to hold. The plans that heaven has for you will all too soon unfold...*

    That was the start of a song I learned, so I could sing it to my daughter--as a present-- 3 Christmases ago; and it was difficult to do without choking up; she was 12 going on 18. Oh, little did I know what heaven had planned for me.

    As a father, there is nothing, NOTHING, I wouldn't do for my only child. Realizing this, I thought of all that my father goes through to ensure that his three children had all he could possibly offer, and then some.

    *So many different prayers I'll pray for all that you might do, but most of all I'll want to know you're walking in the truth. And if I never told you, I want you to know, that as I watch you grow...

    *I pray that God would fill your heart with dreams, and that faith gives you the courage to dare to do great things.

    *I'm here for you whatever this life brings. So let my love give you roots, and help you find your wings*

    And, I remember thinking, as I pounded away on the piano, just me and my "little girl", how throughout my life I've always received blessings, great and small--more than I can count...but I didn't truly appreciate them for what they were, until that Christmas morning.

    "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

    jar,

    I couldn't bring myself to ruining your thread with a handwritten thingie, but thank you so very much for the inspiration.
    Last edited by Manny; March 11th, 2014 at 02:49 AM.

  19. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Manny For This Useful Post:

    drgoretex (March 22nd, 2014), Hawk (September 14th, 2014), jar (March 11th, 2014), johniem (March 18th, 2014), mastersmith (March 13th, 2014)

  20. #11
    Senior Member manoeuver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Near Midwest, US
    Posts
    1,596
    Thanks
    1,233
    Thanked 1,081 Times in 555 Posts
    Rep Power
    15

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Jar- I'm always happy to read an account of faith from a principled critical thinker. Far too few of these around. Thanks.

  21. #12
    Senior Member tandaina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    1,942
    Thanks
    361
    Thanked 2,049 Times in 790 Posts
    Rep Power
    13

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    It is no secret I'm an Episcopal priest. Long haired hippy friend of Jesus over here.

    A wise theologian once told me this excellent "test" for any theology you hear: If the behavior being attributed to God, were it done by a person, would get them arrested; it is probably bad theology.

    I was trained a scientist/engineer first. I bring a great deal of math/logic to my theology. Basically if you believe in a loving God (and mean that) then a whole lot of the hogwash that floats around out there simply can't be true. You get a vengeful angry son killing God, or a loving one, not both.
    ---
    Current pen rotation: way too many!

  22. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to tandaina For This Useful Post:

    Annie (March 11th, 2014), cwent2 (March 11th, 2014), Hawk (September 14th, 2014), jar (March 11th, 2014), kia (March 11th, 2014), KrazyIvan (March 11th, 2014), Manny (March 11th, 2014), txfz1 (March 13th, 2014), Waski_the_Squirrel (March 11th, 2014)

  23. #13
    Senior Member Annie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    487
    Thanks
    208
    Thanked 526 Times in 207 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by tandaina View Post
    It is no secret I'm an Episcopal priest. Long haired hippy friend of Jesus over here.

    A wise theologian once told me this excellent "test" for any theology you hear: If the behavior being attributed to God, were it done by a person, would get them arrested; it is probably bad theology.

    I was trained a scientist/engineer first. I bring a great deal of math/logic to my theology. Basically if you believe in a loving God (and mean that) then a whole lot of the hogwash that floats around out there simply can't be true. You get a vengeful angry son killing God, or a loving one, not both.
    I can only hit 'thanks' on this once, which is a shame because I really like this.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

    http://www.etsy.com/shop/peachez


  24. #14
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    4,045
    Thanks
    479
    Thanked 3,712 Times in 1,610 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by tandaina View Post
    It is no secret I'm an Episcopal priest. Long haired hippy friend of Jesus over here.

    Of course we have to remember that Jesus was not a Christian but a good Jewish boy and reformer.

  25. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to jar For This Useful Post:

    Hawk (September 14th, 2014), johniem (March 18th, 2014), kia (March 11th, 2014), tandaina (March 11th, 2014)

  26. #15
    Senior Member pengeezer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Tampa,FL
    Posts
    446
    Thanks
    280
    Thanked 275 Times in 165 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    I guess that I'm going to be in the minority,but that's not unusual--been there many times.

    I'm one that believes in the Eternal God,the One that made the earth,all that's in it,as well
    as the universe. He spoke all of that into existence,and gave breath into the life of man.Some
    things that happen that make no sense He allows to happen,and I have no answer for how
    or why those things happen. But despite what we may think or act,He is still in control. When
    things happen to me that I find unfair and can do nothing about(and there have been many),
    I still have to trust Him and know that what He has done/is doing is for my best.

    He is fair,merciful,and extremely gracious--sending rain on the just and unjust(Matthew 5:45).


    John

  27. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to pengeezer For This Useful Post:

    drgoretex (March 22nd, 2014), johniem (March 18th, 2014), mastersmith (March 13th, 2014), Mortiana27 (March 12th, 2014)

  28. #16
    Senior Member jar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Deep South Texas
    Posts
    4,045
    Thanks
    479
    Thanked 3,712 Times in 1,610 Posts
    Rep Power
    18

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    For example, why do tribal communities tend to repress women?
    And also ask why that is not true of many tribal societies.

    Simplistic answers are most often just simplistic.

  29. #17
    Senior Member tandaina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    1,942
    Thanks
    361
    Thanked 2,049 Times in 790 Posts
    Rep Power
    13

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul-H View Post
    and as religion is always behind the vast majority of the world evil it is about time that all religion was banned world wide, For Religion is Evil
    A humanist blaming religion for evil is a lot like creationist attributing the existence of the universe to God. But it is hard to investigate God, so the creationist must stop there. It is not nearly so hard to investigate human behaviors and thought processes, so a humanist should not stop. A lot of behaviors can be understood in terms of survival benefits in the context of evolution. For example, why do tribal communities tend to repress women? This is no mystery, and religion has nothing to do with it. However, to realize this sort of thing, you will have to look deeper.
    Yes. You can find as much good as evil in any religion. Saying that because there is evil in religion, it should be banned would be like saying that there is evil stuff on the internet, it should be banned. Or that Germany produced Hitler, so Germany should be annihilated. Or any other silly mass generalization.

    Just as I would never say that because my religion (or any) is good in my life it should be required in the lives of others; I rather expect to not have the opposite imposed!
    ---
    Current pen rotation: way too many!

  30. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to tandaina For This Useful Post:

    Beowulf50 (March 12th, 2014), Hawk (September 14th, 2014), jar (March 11th, 2014), Lbravo (March 27th, 2014), mhosea (March 11th, 2014)

  31. #18
    Senior Member pengeezer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Tampa,FL
    Posts
    446
    Thanks
    280
    Thanked 275 Times in 165 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul-H View Post
    and as religion is always behind the vast majority of the world evil it is about time that all religion was banned world wide, For Religion is Evil
    A humanist blaming religion for evil is a lot like creationist attributing the existence of the universe to God. But it is hard to investigate God, so the creationist must stop there. It is not nearly so hard to investigate human behaviors and thought processes, so a humanist should not stop. A lot of behaviors can be understood in terms of survival benefits in the context of evolution. For example, why do tribal communities tend to repress women? This is no mystery, and religion has nothing to do with it. However, to realize this sort of thing, you will have to look deeper.
    While it is hard to investigate God and His mysteries,the real issue is that most people don't want to go
    down that path--there is a responsibility as to what to do with the information they have learned and
    most don't want to deal with that responsibility.


    John

  32. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to pengeezer For This Useful Post:

    Crazyorange (March 11th, 2014), Hawk (September 14th, 2014), Mortiana27 (March 12th, 2014), tiffanyhenschel (March 11th, 2014)

  33. #19
    Senior Member VertOlive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Gulf of Mexico
    Posts
    3,890
    Thanks
    4,142
    Thanked 3,806 Times in 1,647 Posts
    Rep Power
    14

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    And a word from my personal hero:

    "Many people perceive Christianity as something institutional -- rather than as an encounter with Christ -- which explains why they don't see it as a source of joy."

    -Pope Benedict XVI, May 2004
    Last edited by VertOlive; March 11th, 2014 at 07:34 PM.
    "Nolo esse salus sine vobis ...” —St. Augustine

  34. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to VertOlive For This Useful Post:

    Dreck (March 11th, 2014), Manny (March 12th, 2014), Mortiana27 (March 12th, 2014), tiffanyhenschel (March 11th, 2014), Tony Rex (March 11th, 2014)

  35. #20
    Senior Member pengeezer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Tampa,FL
    Posts
    446
    Thanks
    280
    Thanked 275 Times in 165 Posts
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Re: I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhosea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sumgaikid View Post
    While it is hard to investigate God and His mysteries,the real issue is that most people don't want to go
    down that path--there is a responsibility as to what to do with the information they have learned and
    most don't want to deal with that responsibility.
    I think maybe you generalized my meaning too much. I was not referring to the broad range of theological musings, rather to something very specific. The creationism analog of the humanist looking deeper to the sources of evil would be to ask why or how God came to exist. The catechism answer is that He always existed, hence these questions have no applicability. This is an article of faith.
    In the case of your statement,I had to generalize,as all questions that involve God Himself(or a Deity
    or Supreme Being to others)start from the general and go to the specific. In the search for how
    things came into existence,we look to something higher than ourselves,for it's obvious that we
    didn't create things to run perpetually nor do we have the power to do so. This means that
    whether it be God that created the universe,or evolution or some Being,we still have to exercise
    faith in the ability of the universe to begin and continue as it does. No matter how a humanist
    looks to how or why evil occurs or who started or allowed it to happen,he/she has to exercise
    faith in the answer that they come up with,right or wrong.

    The important point of my statement to yours was that responsibility to new wisdom occurs when
    we understand what that wisdom means and how it affects us. Many people understanding the
    ramifications of Christianity or religion know what is required personally of them and don't want
    to go any further--they are afraid of the cost.


    John

  36. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to pengeezer For This Useful Post:

    Crazyorange (March 12th, 2014), Hawk (March 12th, 2014)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •