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Thread: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

  1. #21
    Senior Member ethernautrix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    Quote Originally Posted by writingrav View Post
    A minority of one in a friendly forum disenfranchises someone who joined because he/she loves pens and may very legitimately not want to be distracted by conversations on subjects that person finds problematic. Folks this thread already proves the risks of going down this road. Can't people take their other interests other places?
    Am I to understand you to mean that everyone should stop talking about subjects that one person might find problematic? Wouldn't it be easier if that one person avoided the conversation?

    I believe there are other fountain pen forums that focus only on pens (repair, history - technical knowledge over socializing), but I don't go there, because I am not interested in pens to that degree. I enjoy a variety of subjects. Maybe I'm the sole voice that should be heard and respected with regard to topics. Or maybe jar or or annie or jon or kia or manny or paul or.... I mean, which one of us should have this sole veto power?

    As I said above, I enjoy discourse amongst pen people, as it tends to be civil, and pen people tend to be very knowledgeable about many subjects and courteous and patient. I prefer the well-rounded experience of this board in particular and would rather not join several other boards on several other topics, because... I like THESE people.

    I find the Internet distracting, but I don't expect others to take the Internet away from me, because I can't control my attention. That's my responsibility.

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  3. #22
    Senior Member ethernautrix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    P.S. I found Paul-H's dissenting opinion to be somewhat offensively worded, and I agree with his opinion to some extent, but I know I wouldn't change a person of faith's opinion by expressing myself as he did. That's an error in tactics (if persuading religious folks to stop being religious were his goal, which I am not saying it was).

    I understand the frustration, but I don't mind it. I'd still rather have the conversation.

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    Senior Member writingrav's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    Ok. Last try and then I will forever hold my piece on this question. What I am saying is that the tone and level of discourse on the forum has already changed as a result of these threads. I think that is too bad as someone who has enjoyed the camaraderie for over three years daily. Religion happens to be my life and my profession though it is a minority religion. I'm used to that. I can see these discussions getting uncomfortable and was just suggesting we don't need that. That's it. I'm done.
    To continue to diminish the place of the handwritten in our lives is to diminish, in a small but real way, our humanity. Philip Hensher

    Dunno ergo sum

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  7. #24
    Senior Member ethernautrix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    Well, now you've piqued my curiosity, writingrav, and I would be interested in hearing more about your minority religion - but I am not pushing for an explanation. Saying only that I am curious. I minored in religious studies, because I was interested in how religions, or religious beliefs, inform people's and, collectively, society's ways of being. I wanted to know how religious beliefs influenced or affected me by cultural osmosis, for instance.

    I have observed changing tones at fpn over six years, and I think it's a natural dynamic of forums in general. Also in friendships - the less critical enthusiasm at the beginning, the eyebrow-raising revelations of character, the continued friendships in some cases and not in others, as details are revealed and shared. The only constant one has any control over is oneself.

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    Member johniem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    I think such a sub-forum will only serve to alienate some loyal members. I'm here to learn about fountain pens and related subject and to hear/read the valued information more experienced members may offer. I may occasionally offer opinions based on my own limited experience with pens. But for politics and religion, I will go to forums (fora?) focused on such subjects. I'm here to relax among cyber-friends with a mutual interest in fountain pens and all things writing.
    John

    “ I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant” ― Alan Greenspan

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    Senior Member pengeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    Quote Originally Posted by ethernautrix View Post
    I say, let 'er rip.

    One facet of being human is negotiating all the differences we bring to the interaction.

    You know, if you don't want to play, you don't have to.

    I would rather open a thread, see the subject, blanch and dry heave or roll my eyes on this side of the screen, then close the window and move on than deprive others of the opportunity to discuss the subjects they're most interested in. And I would like the same opportunity. I mean, I like pens, but I don't restrict my discussion to only pens. I like a variety, and I find pen people to be usually very civil in discourse.

    I don't have any imaginary friends. I wish I had a dozen of them, as Robert Webb did when he was a young boy (can't remember in which episode of Would I Lie to You? this information was revealed). But I appreciate discussions that reveal how people struggle with finding meaning or how they came to understand their faith or lack of faith. Some put more stock in religion than others, but it's the same struggle.

    As for politics, I would love to see thoughtful political discussion (as opposed to reactionary blurb-winging - although I wouldn't ban the latter, but it would tell me more about the person winging blurbs rather than offering well-reasoned arguments, and that will be unavoidable). Maybe (American) politics is in such a shambles cos we've been admonished for years not to discuss it, and now we don't know how to talk about it without yelling and looking stupid to each other.

    All we have to do in discussion is to give the respect to others' opinions that we want for ours. This doesn't mean agreement. If you have to, you could think, "I respect his right to sound like an uninformed jerkbag," snigger to yourself, and move on. You don't have to say it. That's what I mean about respect vis-à-vis volatile subjects, such as, "Which do you prefer, clipless pens or pens with clips?" Oh, the hard positions some hold on this matter! (That one's on fpn - and not locked!)

    My opinion on this sub-forum idea is that I'd rather not, as such a move would indicate that we are unruly and unable to control ourselves. But if a separate sub-forum is what people want to protect themselves from accidentally espying a topic they'd prefer to avoid, well... okay. Either way, I'm likely to take a look at the topics, so separate-sub-forum, not-separate-sub-forum, machts nichts.
    I'm with Lisa on this one for the same reasons that she brings up. It's amazing that some subjects don't
    garner the same heat as politics and religion do,but everyone handles a heated subject differently.
    I'm one of those that agree to disagree because we all aren't going to think the same way. Still,if
    that's what is going to be done,my day isn't going to be ruined by it--there are a small number of
    subjects in the Lounge that I don't bother to look at because they don't interest me. Still,I respect
    the views that other folks hold--it's not my job to change them.

    So if we have a sub-forum for just politics,religion and whatever......then macht nichts.


    John
    Last edited by pengeezer; March 13th, 2014 at 07:38 AM.

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    I am amazed that someone could be offended by the title of a thread such as "I was born into a religious southern family. A personal path to belief."

    It is clearly labeled explaining the content, points out that it involves personal belief and that it will be about religion.

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    Senior Member Manny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    Quote Originally Posted by johniem View Post
    I think such a sub-forum will only serve to alienate some loyal members. I'm here to learn about fountain pens and related subject and to hear/read the valued information more experienced members may offer. I may occasionally offer opinions based on my own limited experience with pens. But for politics and religion, I will go to forums (fora?) focused on such subjects. I'm here to relax among cyber-friends with a mutual interest in fountain pens and all things writing.
    So, there wouldn't be a need for you to ever visit the Off Topic area of this forum then.
    The ""Lenten Scriptures" thread in the Creative Writing sub-forum, shares not only my devotion to Scripture, but also of my affinity to actually use my fountain pens--and other writing instruments.
    If anyone chooses to discuss what I post, they will not be discussing it with me. Others can decide for themselves.

  16. #29
    The Nibsmith dannzeman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    I just want to let everyone know that I am keeping tabs on this thread, not because of its tone or subject, but to see what the majority of members' views are.

    I can't say I'm opposed to another sub-forum within the Off-Topic forum. If religion and politics are a popular subject, then I think it should have its own forum, the same way we add other forums for a specific brand of pen or when we added the Creative Writing sub-forum to The Creative Side.

    One thing we won't do is ban discussion of a particular topic. That's too much of a slippery slope.

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  18. #30
    Senior Member DrChumley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    I will add my comments to this fray, then I'm going to bow out for good.

    Several years ago, I went through a very difficult, very personal journey from a life of an invested believer to one of uncertainty, and eventually, to one of a non-believer. It was a transition which was horrible, painful, and completely necessary for me to undertake. There are scars from that time in my life which may never heal fully. I lost friends, gained others, and caused a great deal of hurt to people around me as I struggled to figure out my own path in life. Since that time, I have worked very hard not to hold any bitterness or animosity in my heart. It hasn't been easy. But I've been on both sides; I can see the good intentions of each, the points-of-view from which each side is approaching a discussion.

    I've done my best to stay uninvolved from the discussions around religion on this board, as I do in all of my various haunts online. A subforum might help me avoid those discussions to a certain extent, but I've found that when discussions in one small part of a forum get heated, they tend to infect the other parts of the site. (e.g., a perfectly reasonable request for a subforum ends up with a post intentionally meant to offend by using terms like "imaginary friend" to refer to others' deeply held and exceptionally personal beliefs. A move which, if I may say, I find to be an exceptionally immature and disrepectful way of disagreeing with someone, with the apparent intent of belittling and enflaming.)

    I often use the "What's New" link and the Tapatalk "Unread" sections, neither of which give me the ability to hide certain subforums. (And in the case of the Tapatalk client, even shows a teaser of the text within the thread.) And, having managed forums in the past, I understand Dan's refusal to ban certain topics outright. It is a slippery slope.

    But I'll be honest: I don't want to see these topics of discussion at all.

    I started haunting FPGeeks for two reasons.

    1) I wanted to learn more about fountain pens, ink, and paper.
    2) I found this forum to be the most friendly, accepting, and welcoming of the scant few pen forums out there, without a whole host of rules that define everything you can and can not post.

    Unfortunately, as my time here has gone on, I've found fewer and fewer FP-related posts, and a whole lot more of what I would consider to be "fluff." And I have found that the overall tenor of the forum has started to shift--it simply doesn't feel as friendly to me here as it once did. It seems that folks are becoming less patient with one another, and less interested in actually talking about the whole subject of the forums: fountain pens.

    Frankly, I can go anywhere on the internet and find people doing their best to offend or judge one another over politics and religion. I don't need that same kind of mean-spiritedness infecting a hobby to which I am fairly new, and which I have grown to love dearly. I come here for information on fountain pens, ink, and paper. Period. I don't have any desire to spend my limited fountain pen time being proselytized to, or watching others do their level best to push buttons or belittle. If FPGeeks is going to become the home for regular and repeated religious and political discussions, it's time for me to bow out for good. That's not why I'm here.

    How you "solve" this without creating a bunch of restrictive rules, I don't know. (Other than to appeal to folks to please not be inflammatory and to stay on-topic.) If I could block forums or threads the way I do on Facebook, the first one that would get blocked is "The Lounge." (Unless we create a new Politics and Religion sub-forum, in which case that would be one that I'd block first.) Yeah, I can and do skip through the threads I don't want to read, except when they're entitled "Yay!?" and I can't tell what they're about. But as soon as I log in and see that most of the unread threads are about non-pen-related stuff, I'm out.

    One of the things I love about this hobby is that I have met some wonderful, welcoming, awesome people. People who believe different things than I do, or have different interests. What sets us apart isn't anywhere near as important as what we have in common, and the reason we started coming here in the first place. Let's just stop talking about all this stuff and focus on why we all started coming to this forum in the first place--the pens.

    And with that, I close my epic treatise, and sign off for a while.
    Last edited by DrChumley; March 13th, 2014 at 10:01 AM. Reason: Typos galore.

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    Senior Member Potter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    As a relative newbie I did not realise that this was an issue for quite a lot of people on the Forum, I rarely go to the Lounge as my interest within this forum is with fountain pens, if I want to discuss anything else I would do it off list, or if I want to talk politics I find a suitable Forum and so I do with some of my other hobbies. However I recognise and respect the right of any member to express his/her opinion on different matters as long as it is not offensive or putting pressure on other members, I understand that not everyone has the same viewpoint. It would not concern me if there was a separate sub forum dealing with politics and religion as I would be virtually unaware of its existence.

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  22. #32
    Useless mhosea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    Quote Originally Posted by johniem View Post
    I think such a sub-forum will only serve to alienate some loyal members. I'm here to learn about fountain pens and related subject and to hear/read the valued information more experienced members may offer. I may occasionally offer opinions based on my own limited experience with pens. But for politics and religion, I will go to forums (fora?) focused on such subjects. I'm here to relax among cyber-friends with a mutual interest in fountain pens and all things writing.
    Well, as I said, I personally would be looking for ways to avoid all such discussions, and based on around 22 years with it, I don't intend to go to any internet forums to discuss any of it. I'll happily discuss these matters around the lunch table if you like, but the internet is useless for resolving any substantial disagreement over religion, at least, and politics probably. So for me the pivotal question is whether adding such a forum would promote substantially more discussion on such topics, in which case it would be a bad thing for a fountain pen forum IMHO. Better that we should square off over Noodler's than religion and politics. However, my experience with having such forums on amateur astronomy sites supports the notion that it might function more as a way of compartmentalizing those discussions so that people who do not want them can more easily avoid them. In that case one might get a little bit more of them but actually be more successful in ignoring them.

    Somewhere in here is the question of whether these discussions are inevitable or just a phase while the site is feeling its oats and emphasizing how it differs from FPN. If discussing religion here is a passing fad, then doing nothing would be the best thing, and that is, IMHO, inclusive of both creating forums and of bothering to oppose the continuance of such discussions when they arise. If it's here to stay, I'd like to see it moved out of the lounge. Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by mhosea; March 13th, 2014 at 11:42 PM.
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    Quote Originally Posted by DrChumley View Post

    I often use the "What's New" link and the Tapatalk "Unread" sections, neither of which give me the ability to hide certain subforums. (And in the case of the Tapatalk client, even shows a teaser of the text within the thread.)
    But I'll be honest: I don't want to see these topics of discussion at all.

    I started haunting FPGeeks for two reasons.

    1) I wanted to learn more about fountain pens, ink, and paper.
    2) I found this forum to be the most friendly, accepting, and welcoming of the scant few pen forums out there, without a whole host of rules that define everything you can and can not post.

    I use the same "what's new" function and agree with everything else you've said. At the end of the day, this is a pen forum. If people want to have in depth discussions on religion or politics there are plenty of dedicated forums form them to do so. I think a PRS sub-section would just be encouraging these themes to flourish. One or two posts every now and then in The Lounge isn't going to kill anyone, but I don't think stoking the fire is the right thing at this time. So while I don't think it's a bad idea, and it's coming from a good place. I'll cast my vote in the "no thanks" column.

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    Member Mortiana27's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul-H View Post
    Yes everyone is entitled to their own views on religion (me included) but no one has the right to ram it down the throats of those who choose to have a life unencumbered by the outdated teachings of Religion, In the educated modern world more people chose an educated view on this matter than choose the ancient outdated religious view.

    NO RELIGION or POLITICS Please

    Don't ruin a perfectly good form just to appease a minority
    The thing about forums is that we, the user, choose which topics to follow. We choose which threads, within these topics, to read and/or to comment. Where in this simple process does the "ramming" enter the picture?

    The entire point of this thread is to discuss whether or not a sub-forum is needed for such topics, and your comment quite clearly shows that YES, a sub-forum might be very helpful. All the religion and politics would be contained within a barbed-wire-fenced zone ... and the only way one could potentially be exposed to such topics is if one deliberately chose to enter the zone.

    If we were reducing the forum to just two Pens and PRS ... then yes, I too might be disenfranchised by the forum at large. Being that there will still be at least 23 sub-forums filled to the brim with pen, ink, paper topics, I'm not sure how one more sub-forum in the lounge is ruining the forum.

    As someone else mentioned ... clearly describing the sub-forum is key. It should be a blatant, bright, blinking sign to those NOT interested in such topics to avoid the sub-forum.

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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    Quote Originally Posted by writingrav View Post
    What I am saying is that the tone and level of discourse on the forum has already changed as a result of these threads.
    From where I'm sitting, I have honestly not noticed any change of tone. People are always quite decent to me in this forum, and I belong to a "Love To Hate 'Em" religion. The Geeks here are the most articulate and intelligent people I've come across in a very long time!
    "Nolo esse salus sine vobis ...” —St. Augustine

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    Senior Member Laura N's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    I agree with writinggrav: the tone of the site has changed just with these discussions. People are taking sides, people are getting upset. Res ipsa loquitur.

    Here's the thing that I notice. The one person who strongly states a minority view about religion is the one who draws criticism. He says, in terms no stronger than the believers use, his opinion that the Christian God is imaginary. And many people consider that rude or antagonistic. When really he's just opining that people not talk about religion here.

    The problem might be that if many people believe one thing, and agree with each other in that belief, than anyone stating the opposite is considered confrontational and rude, or wrong, or to be rocking the boat. Anyone who doesn't agree with that belief feels out of place. It creates a difficult atmosphere for others.

    I just don't think religion (or politics) can be discussed neutrally. If you put the contentious political and religious discussions into a totally elective part of the forum, then I think that would create the greatest good for the greatest number. Those who love to discuss those things can do so. And those who don't can avoid them. Which is why I support excluding that new sub-forum from the "New Posts" feature. "New Posts" is the way many of us read the forum. If the threads are in the Lounge, as they are now, then they pop up when you hit "New Posts." Many of us just come here for the fountain pens, and stay because it's congenial. When the tone becomes overtly religious or political, we don't feel comfortable.

    Like Jon, I've seen this type of elective sub-forum on my other forums, and it always works well. I fully expect that the PFS forum would be popular with many folks here. Letting everyone else avoid these topics may seem like a sacrifice now, but it is really just like turning down your music in public. Nothing is wrong with your music; it's just that not everyone wants to hear it. It's just being polite.

    Finally, Manny, I love your threads. I like seeing your writing and hearing your thoughts. I hope you keep doing it.

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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    Maybe I've not been into forums long enough, I am surprised by the depth of feeling on this. I'm not religious but didn't find Jar's specific post offensive. Here's my say on the subforum question:

    1. If there's going to be no specific PRS subforum, but these topics can be discussed in the Lounge, I would personally prefer a 'no proselytising' rule. I'd rather that was picked out of my lounge muesli.
    2. I'd probably be okay with anything including proselytising if there's going to be a specific PRS subforum.
    Latest pen related post @ flounders-mindthots.blogspot.com : '70s Pilot Elite pocket pen review

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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    i don't browse by forum or sub forum. i either hit New Posts, or do a search. so it would be six of one, 1/2 dozen of the other to me.

  35. #39
    Senior Member Manny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS


  36. #40
    Senior Member ethernautrix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suggestion for a new sub-forum: PRS

    My hope is that taking offense and expressing outrage don't become the kneejerk reaction that one sees all over social media.

    If any group can stem that tide, it's pen nerds. Geeks, I mean. Fountain pen geeks.

  37. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to ethernautrix For This Useful Post:

    jar (March 13th, 2014), klpeabody (March 13th, 2014), Manny (March 13th, 2014), pengeezer (March 13th, 2014), tiffanyhenschel (March 13th, 2014)

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