Learning to use a flex dip pen

[ac12]

I am "trying" to learn to use a flex dip pen (nib).
The thing that I am having trouble with is how much (or little) to press down to make the pen flex.

I am holding the pen at a lower pen angle, so it flexes easier.
But being "gun shy" I do not want to press so much that the tines splay and I damage the pen.
Does anyone have any guidance on working up to the correct amount of downward pressure to use?

I have been using a Mark Ferth #4, but I got a few more flex pens and have a few on the way, that I will try out in the next week; Spencerian #1, Gillott 303 and 404, Esterbrook 128 and 357, Hunt 22 and 56, Nikko Z, and a few others that seem like they are flex pens, but I don't have any documentation that lists them as flex pens.

Thanks

[Apprenti]

First of all, make sure you're using the proper holder. Oblique's best if you're doing copperplate or Spencerian (though lefties often prefer straight).

As far as flex goes, you'll have to figure that out yourself. At the end of the day, dip nibs are super cheap, so it doesn't really matter if you spring one or two. You'll find that, in a couple of weeks, you'll be much more confident with them and you'll be able to figure things out for yourself

Best, let me know if you need any help,
Joe

[AndyT]

I've yet to spring one: it's quite astonishing how far you can go with some of these nibs. (I did snap an old Brandauer, but on closer inspection it was pitted anyway). Best to take it easy until they're broken in, I guess.

There's probably more danger of damaging a nib either inserting or withdrawing it from a holder, so my advice would be to marry them up until the nib wears out. Straight holders are pretty cheap, and it's no great problem to make a few if need be. Obliques ... not so straightforward.

[Apprenti]

Twisting nibs can be caused by using a straight holder, so that's why I suggest an oblique. Joe Vitolo sent me a video of his on setting them up which is available on YouTube. Easy-peasy!

Joe

[ac12]

This is primarily for general writing, but I can see how even with general writing, the oblique would line up the pen/nib better for a clean downstroke.

[AndyT]

Well, in the history of writing the oblique holder is rather a new-fangled contraption. Platt Rogers Spencer and George Bickham used straight pens (quills in both cases) so there's always the option of turning the paper. That said, for Spencerian in particular, it's a boon. There are some who would argue against it for copperplate, Paul Antonio for one, though the reasoning escapes me. Dr Vitolo would certainly disagree.

It's worth noting that there are some nibs which need surgery either to themselves or to the flange in order to mount them so that the point falls in line with the axis of the pen. The Hunt Imperial 101 really needs cutting down for use with a Speedball for instance, and there's nothing off the shelf which will take a shoulder pen.

Just for fun here's a nice picture of a fashionable lady from the 1860s, writing a slanted style with a straight pen, taken from the "Spencerian Key to Practical Penmanship".

Big Skirt.png

[Apprenti]

I've read that book, interesting. Yes, you can use a straight holder, but it means much more work and, IMO, can cause unnecessary wear to the nib. I'm not quite sure what you meant about Mr Vitolo, but I do know that he's a huge supporter of obliques. In fact he's just bought a new one and he's having another made!

You'll find that most people use an oblique nowadays. Sure, you can say 'Spencer didn't need it, why should I?' but the real question should be: 'why not?'. Why not use something that was invented to help?

Enjoy your dip nibs
Joe

[AndyT]

As far as I know Dr Vitolo only uses obliques for his engrossers' script work, as do nearly but not quite all modern artistic writers. The advantages are obvious, surely, but for day to day writing I'm unconvinced that they outweigh the convenience of straight holders unless you have one for every different type of nib.

Remember, there are places in the world where these things aren't readily available unless you're prepared to put up with a basic black Speedball, make your own or import from the US. Frustrating, time consuming and expensive, in that order. Perhaps not something the average fountain pen person would willingly enter into.

[RuiFromUK]

When I practice copperplate I am actually one of the people who uses a straight penholder rather than an oblique for about the same reasons mentioned by Andy: "there are places in the world where these things aren't readily available unless you're prepared to put up with a basic black Speedball, make your own or import from the US. Frustrating, time consuming and expensive, in that order."

Having very small hands I find the Speedball oblique penholder very hard to use and the nibs get scratchy on the paper due to the different angle of the nib to the paper from what the holder more or less expects to be.

Finally I have settled using these: Brause 66EF and Brause 1616 Ornament Penholders (or a plastic penholder that I found in a German website ( http://www.kallipos.de/gb-pen-holders.html ) which fit perfectly the size of my hands. IN UK the first two items can be found in http://scribblers.co.uk/.

When the day comes for me to practice the Spencerian script I am sure the present or similar equipment will be used unless circumstances change. If an adjustable oblique penholder becomes available locally I would love to try it for both Copperplate and Spencerian scripts.

[Apprenti]

Hey Rui,

I live in the UK too, and I was given one of Brian Smith's Unique Obliques. The same kind Dr Vitolo uses.

Generally, I don't mess around with different nibs, but I'm yet to find one that doesn't fit or that needs modifying. If we're talking about convenience here, isn't that why we use fountain pens? Sure, for everyday writing a straight holder may be more useful, but for Spencerian and Copperplate the oblique holder is significantly easier to use. I used to think they were just a fad too, until I tried one! My straight holder hasn't been touched in weeks, as I just use a fountain pen where I would have used a straight holder.

I guess it's all 'Your meat my veg', 'Your mileage may vary' and all that.

Joe

[RuiFromUK]

Hi Joe,

"If we're talking about convenience here, isn't that why we use fountain pens? Sure, for everyday writing a straight holder may be more useful, but for Spencerian and Copperplate the oblique holder is significantly easier to use." I could not possibly agree more with you about that. In my case all it needs to happen is to find a cheaper adjustable oblique penholder like yours as importing one of them is too expensive for me due to transport and import costs. Meanwhile a straight penholder will have to do as I mentioned in my post.

As to fountain pens I have also used them in the past for copperplate script (there is a post somewhere in this forum where I show a sample of copperplate script using a vintage fountain pen) but I prefer the use of a dip pen with an EF nib as I can achieve much thinner lines with them bearing in mind I am just a beginner in calligraphy.

Kind regards,

Rui

[Apprenti]

You can get Brian Smith's pens for under £100 including postage, but I guess that's not cheap. Definitely worth it though.

I've got a Spencerian nibbed Nakaya that I use a lot. It's cool because it does the Spencerian monoline script very well, and can pull off very nice flexed Spencerian as well. Ornamental penmanship is certainly much harder, however, and for that I always use a dip pen (unless I'm doing a draft or something). I completely agree about certain vintage pens. I have a 100 year old Liberty full flex and, although the flex is great, it's a western Fine at best, which isn't good enough. Some vintage pens, however, have very fine nibs, and work exceptionally well.

Oh, and my Nakaya does everything a good dip nib does: hairlines (thinner than a Nikko G nib), square cut-offs, quick snap back, wet swells with light hairlines. The only thing it can't do is be oblique However, it is easier to carry around, and it feels delightful to write with it.

Cheers,
Joe

[AndyT]

You can get Brian Smith's pens for under £100 including postage, but I guess that's not cheap.

No, I guess not. There's one on its way to me right now, but I had a hard time justifying the expense to myself. The phrase "like giving a pig a strawberry" kept coming to mind unbidden. So the question of whether it's worth it - and I'm sure it will be - has to be balanced against the other question "am I worthy of it"? The answer to that one is that I hope to be, eventually.

During my discussions with Brian the question of matching nibs to flanges came up. He recommends sticking to one nib per pen, and in his opinion a 303 won't fit properly in a flange set up for a Principal, for instance. Make of that what you will.

[Apprenti]

Ken Fraser, who I think is on these forums, mentioned recently that he has a nib for each flange, and that he swaps the flanges around (unless I'm completely mistaken).

Personally, I only use one nib in my holder: a nikko g-nib. I just don't have any need to change I guess, I'd rather be writing!

[Apprenti]

This video's helpful: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p6ElXz...ature=youtu.be

[AndyT]

Brian also advises against swapping flanges - you didn't think I hadn't asked, surely, what with me coming from Yorkshire? Whatever, being stuck with Principals in that holder isn't going to be much of a hardship.

[Apprenti]

Indeed, and I'm only too happy to continue with my Nikko G nibs!