The Great Obscenities in the US today.

[jar]

Amen, though at least in CA there is a bit of history required to graduate, same as when I grew up (in MT).

Are there states where US, world, and state history are not required?

Granted the quality is another matter. I'm intrigued by the lack of what I would consider basic knowledge in young people I meet at work. At times it is astounding, but again, some of this is just unwillingness to learn though you'd think some of it should at least ring a bell.

On that note, I was aware there was rationing during the war, but I'd never seen metal chits like that before. I'd always heard of coupons. The 41 date is intriguing too. One month into the war and coins(?) are minted...

Are there states without history requirements? I know I was surprised to fond that CA removed its geography requirement for high school.

Look closely at the coins.

They are Company Money, good only at the company store and not transferable into cash.

The Mill and Company town period of Capitalism lasted well into the WWII era. People lived in company houses bought from company stores and since they were paid in company money could not set anything aside for reserve, retirement or emergency.

You were of course free to NOT work at the Mill or Mine or Shirt Factory or ...



BUT ...




you then left your house with only the clothes you could take with you and zero savings or cash.

It was True Capitalism and freedom from restrictions or Over-regulation.

[jar]

I find this thread fascinating.

Great.

Why?

[carlos.q]

I find this thread fascinating.

Great.

Why?

Because things are said here that I would never expect on any pen forum, much less the *other* forum.
First of all I agree with your opinion of the great obscenities in the US. And if I may add my two cents: another obscenity is preaching liberty and freedom across the world, while at the same time denying basic self determination to my country for the past 116 years. That is not right.

[jar]

I find this thread fascinating.

Great.

Why?

Because things are said here that I would never expect on any pen forum, much less the *other* forum.
First of all I agree with your opinion of the great obscenities in the US. And if I may add my two cents: another obscenity is preaching liberty and freedom across the world, while at the same time denying basic self determination to my country for the past 116 years. That is not right.

That goes back to the issue of education. The US has a long, long history of expansion through force and occupation but we simply don't present those details to students.

AbE:

The list of lands the US took bt force is pretty extensive; Florida, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, California, Utah, Oregon, Idaho, Washington, Montana, North and South Dakota, Guam, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Hawaii ...

Hawaii was particularly repugnant since we had sworn not to do so.

[LagNut]

Look closely at the coins.

They are Company Money, good only at the company store and not transferable into cash.

The Mill and Company town period of Capitalism lasted well into the WWII era. People lived in company houses bought from company stores and since they were paid in company money could not set anything aside for reserve, retirement or emergency.

You were of course free to NOT work at the Mill or Mine or Shirt Factory or ...



BUT ...




you then left your house with only the clothes you could take with you and zero savings or cash.

It was True Capitalism and freedom from restrictions or Over-regulation.

I'd obviously never seen "company store" money, through I'd heard of company stores.

I grew up in a city that was a one company town, but of a very different sort - Butte Montana, the Gibraltar of unionism. At least it was till 1979, when the mines closed down completely. Right now, to work in the newly opened mines, you can't be in a union.

Still, I return to my nostalgia for the way things worked when I grew up. We had a good public utility system, which was better than the market system which replaced it in the 90's. The promises of lower cost never panned out, and I watched what a market based gas and electric system turned out to be. We got to learn about rolling blackouts, as we were gamed to take our money. I yearn for the strong and effective PUC which was lost. It will take work to get it back, and we're not close.

I liked the old telephone system, again a regulated utility. What the market has given us is a substandard system compared to Europe, at least as far as I can see. We have a poor infrastructure which will hamper our competitiveness as we go forward.

So, I guess I still long for the system I saw in the 60's, with respect to the markets. There was a lot of lessons built into it that the Voodoo economic years destroyed.

Side note: I'm not going to be able to keep up with a rapid back and forth, but I will do my best. I'm enjoying this immensely.

[jar]

Look closely at the coins.

They are Company Money, good only at the company store and not transferable into cash.

The Mill and Company town period of Capitalism lasted well into the WWII era. People lived in company houses bought from company stores and since they were paid in company money could not set anything aside for reserve, retirement or emergency.

You were of course free to NOT work at the Mill or Mine or Shirt Factory or ...



BUT ...




you then left your house with only the clothes you could take with you and zero savings or cash.

It was True Capitalism and freedom from restrictions or Over-regulation.

I'd obviously never seen "company store" money, through I'd heard of company stores.

I grew up in a city that was a one company town, but of a very different sort - Butte Montana, the Gibraltar of unionism. At least it was till 1979, when the mines closed down completely. Right now, to work in the newly opened mines, you can't be in a union.

Still, I return to my nostalgia for the way things worked when I grew up. We had a good public utility system, which was better than the market system which replaced it in the 90's. The promises of lower cost never panned out, and I watched what a market based gas and electric system turned out to be. We got to learn about rolling blackouts, as we were gamed to take our money. I yearn for the strong and effective PUC which was lost. It will take work to get it back, and we're not close.

I liked the old telephone system, again a regulated utility. What the market has given us is a substandard system compared to Europe, at least as far as I can see. We have a poor infrastructure which will hamper our competitiveness as we go forward.

So, I guess I still long for the system I saw in the 60's, with respect to the markets. There was a lot of lessons built into it that the Voodoo economic years destroyed.

Side note: I'm not going to be able to keep up with a rapid back and forth, but I will do my best. I'm enjoying this immensely.

Let me try to make a few points related to the regulated monopoly utility system that we had.

First, Utilities were guaranteed a return on investment, and so if they wanted to see a larger dollar amount return they had to invest in the infrastructure. The infrastructure, plant, repairs, maintenance and upkeep were all assets.

When we deregulated the utilities, things like maintenance costs, plant, infrastructure moved from the asset side of the ledger to the cost side of the ledger. The way to increase profits was to reduce the costs.

A second point has to do with the average persons retirement. There were tools out there that the average person could look to as pieces of a retirement strategy that would be safe; government bonds and utility stocks, decreasing term life insurance to protect the house and pay off the mortgage if the wage earner died. Sure, utility stocks did not make anyone rich but they were a secure return. They were not a favored investment for the wealth but the new deregulated utilities certainly were. It was only the small guy and the general consumer that suffered.

[LagNut]

I think we are in the same choir.

Really intrigued to see actual company store money. I did think that would have been gone by the 40's.

Also, on your point about investments, and retirements. I knew people who had Montana Power stock as there retirement, which was turned into Q-west stock during deregulation. Not a pretty story, but instructional. Just really sad when it happens to people you know.

Cheers
Mike

[LagNut]

Their, not there! Can't edit old posts from this thing...

[jar]

I think we are in the same choir.

Really intrigued to see actual company store money. I did think that would have been gone by the 40's.

Also, on your point about investments, and retirements. I knew people who had Montana Power stock as there retirement, which was turned into Q-west stock during deregulation. Not a pretty story, but instructional. Just really sad when it happens to people you know.

Cheers
Mike

Yes, people do tend to think things like company money disappeared long, long ago. But often such things are more recent than most think. The Greensboro Massacre happened in 1979 when police stood aside as members of the KKK and American Nazi Party shot six marchers trying to support workers rights, particularly for black industrial workers in North Carolina.

[HughC]

Great Obscenities in the US.... second is that the purpose of the education system should be to train and prepare workers.

hi jar

i keep coming back to this (apologies for the lack of capitals, one hand out of action in a sling and using cap lock a pain), given that all people require an education (to some degree) to function within society be they workers. bosses, politicians or any thing else then the primary purpose of education would be to provide a skill set to function within society. that this also means a skill set to enable a person to be employed then links the primary purpose to work. does this then mean it becomes part of the prime purpose or a by product of the skills needed? the skill set needed at it's simplest level is open to being defined and i'm sure we would all agree on some and not on others. some of the skills i'd call essential are the obvious, reading, writing, maths and at a basic level. i'd add ethics/morals (noting the bias that can occur) as well because the less people that go before the courts the better and a knowledge of how society "works". the concept of education and job opportunities is well ingrained.

the secondary purpose is to expand that skill set, to deliver a 'well rounded" education. that, of course, delivers benefits to the student and the community be it history ( sometimes a biased area!!), music, arts or a foreign language among many. perhaps you need to expand this a bit jar . why does it fail? how does it fail?...given the us system is one i know nothing about. now 'electoral education" , does that mean being able to understand exactly what the policies mean so "informed" choices can be made? rather than the " believe me son, would i tell a lie" that the politicians stuff down our throats knowing full well it's not the real truth!! yes, ours do that too.

regards
hugh

[jar]

Great Obscenities in the US.... second is that the purpose of the education system should be to train and prepare workers.

hi jar

i keep coming back to this (apologies for the lack of capitals, one hand out of action in a sling and using cap lock a pain), given that all people require an education (to some degree) to function within society be they workers. bosses, politicians or any thing else then the primary purpose of education would be to provide a skill set to function within society. that this also means a skill set to enable a person to be employed then links the primary purpose to work. does this then mean it becomes part of the prime purpose or a by product of the skills needed? the skill set needed at it's simplest level is open to being defined and i'm sure we would all agree on some and not on others. some of the skills i'd call essential are the obvious, reading, writing, maths and at a basic level. i'd add ethics/morals (noting the bias that can occur) as well because the less people that go before the courts the better and a knowledge of how society "works". the concept of education and job opportunities is well ingrained.

the secondary purpose is to expand that skill set, to deliver a 'well rounded" education. that, of course, delivers benefits to the student and the community be it history ( sometimes a biased area!!), music, arts or a foreign language among many. perhaps you need to expand this a bit jar . why does it fail? how does it fail?...given the us system is one i know nothing about. now 'electoral education" , does that mean being able to understand exactly what the policies mean so "informed" choices can be made? rather than the " believe me son, would i tell a lie" that the politicians stuff down our throats knowing full well it's not the real truth!! yes, ours do that too.

regards
hugh

While what you present is pretty much the argument for job training as the goal of education I very, very strongly disagree and let me try to explain why.

Slaves, serfs, vassals, indentured servants, peons and other such designations can be taught how to perform tasked needed for jobs. There have been very successful societies based on educating folk to do their jobs. Slaves and serfs worked the fields, wrought the iron, mined ores, manned the ships, built the mansions ...

But the US was founded to be something more, where "Citizens" also ran the government, where bakers and plumbers and publicans and barbers and garbage collectors and firemen and farmers were meant to make the laws and direct the country.

That takes an informed citizenry, citizens that know what has been done in the past and the results of those actions.

If we are to avoid continuing down the path to Oligarchy it is necessary to build informed citizens, ones trained in critical thinking, knowledgeable about history, studied in morality, capable of thinking beyond the immediate short term, the quarter, the year, the term.

We need to refocus the education system towards producing more than just workers but rather informed citizens.

[HughC]

While what you present is pretty much the argument for job training as the goal of education I very, very strongly disagree and let me try to explain why.

Slaves, serfs, vassals, indentured servants, peons and other such designations can be taught how to perform tasked needed for jobs. There have been very successful societies based on educating folk to do their jobs. Slaves and serfs worked the fields, wrought the iron, mined ores, manned the ships, built the mansions ...

But the US was founded to be something more, where "Citizens" also ran the government, where bakers and plumbers and publicans and barbers and garbage collectors and firemen and farmers were meant to make the laws and direct the country.

That takes an informed citizenry, citizens that know what has been done in the past and the results of those actions.

If we are to avoid continuing down the path to Oligarchy it is necessary to build informed citizens, ones trained in critical thinking, knowledgeable about history, studied in morality, capable of thinking beyond the immediate short term, the quarter, the year, the term.

We need to refocus the education system towards producing more than just workers but rather informed citizens.

actually what i said is the better educated the better the outcome. it's not possible to separate education from work, that's just fact. it doesn't mean work is the sole reason for education though. i think our views are not that different. every population has people of differing academic ability so the basic skill set needs be set at a level that meets basic needs, a number of people have no real interest in expanding their skills or becoming more "informed" and the unfortunate truth is society needs people with low expectations to do the undesirable jobs (more the issue there is they also don't pay well) . "democracy" is meant to work as you point out, people vote and everyone has that right so it hasn't "failed" as such and i doubt historically there's been a time when so many have been included in the process of determining who governs ( how they govern is a different matter). that money (and absurd amounts of it) plays such a dominant role is of concern when it comes to politics, that seems to be an area that needs reform. i see little to support your claim that the education system doesn't deliver given that in nearly every field us educated are amongst the worlds best, certainly here in aust. the education system does deliver acceptable results overall. a skill set that includes ".. trained in critical thinking, knowledgeable about history, studied in morality, capable of thinking beyond the immediate short term, the quarter, the year, the term" would benefit everyone, on that i agree.

[jar]

i see little to support your claim that the education system doesn't deliver given that in nearly every field us educated are amongst the worlds best, certainly here in aust.

Not sure what aust is but what support is there that US educated folk are among the world's best?

But I still believe that education to do some job is a serious obscenity and a sure path to failure as a society or nation.

i think our views are not that different. every population has people of differing academic ability so the basic skill set needs be set at a level that meets basic needs, a number of people have no real interest in expanding their skills or becoming more "informed" and the unfortunate truth is society needs people with low expectations to do the undesirable jobs (more the issue there is they also don't pay well) .

But for our society to succeed and not continue our decline into third world status we need informed citizens. We need citizens that want to be informed and understand that they have a duty to be informed. It is not a matter of academic ability, it is a matter of national and societal necessity. We need voters that can understand issues, history, past events and the consequences of those events.

We can't keep making the same stupid errors over and over again.

[pengeezer]

"Not sure what aust is but what support is there that US educated folk are among the world's best?"


What Hugh is referring to("aust") is Austrailia.


John

[HughC]

but what support is there that US educated folk are among the world's best?

what i said was the top end is world class, i don't know how the average compares but as the top is world class i assume the system that produces them is of a reasonable standard.

But I still believe that education to do some job is a serious obscenity and a sure path to failure as a society or nation.

you don't become a doctor, engineer, teacher or plumber without training/education to be one, obscenity? no just reality. expanding education , as i've said , delivers considerable benefits.

But for our society to succeed and not continue our decline into third world status we need informed citizens. We need citizens that want to be informed and understand that they have a duty to be informed.

you need to recognize some just don't care as long as their needs are met. of course they should be "informed" or have that option, if they prefer not to be then that has to be accepted.

It is not a matter of academic ability, it is a matter of national and societal necessity. We need voters that can understand issues, history, past events and the consequences of those events.

so is it the education system and/or the political system that, to you, is failing? ideology is a big driver in how people vote, regardless of education, and that can cause problems when extreme ideology gains mass support ('30's germany being a prime example). the numerous cults that surface often contain well educated people, something i find hard to understand but it happens. i'm not sure the education system is entirely to blame for your concerns, noting that the more private operated schools the more ideological "imprinting" occurs, but in general i agree with your opinion re voters.

[HughC]

while i'm on a roll lets throw another aspect in, media. does the "media" do it's "job" in terms of presenting facts to the population that are of real importance? really who cares if x gets caught in bed with y, how does it help if some minor politician gets caught taking a bribe in the "big picture". maybe the "numero uno" obscenity is the failure of "media" to present facts and opinions on issues that are important. how did the NYT , some 20 blocks from wall street fail in 2007 (earlier would have been helpful...) to notice bear stein, wp morgan and lehman had major balance sheet problems? i wonder if an obsession with "new" news obscures the really important news and the detailed analysis that needs to go with it to allow people to make " informed" decisions. maybe it's more a matter of finding the real cause of why voters aren't informed, maybe no one ( the media) informs them and presents a variety of analysis/opinions to allow "informed" opinions to be made.

[jar]

what i said was the top end is world class, i don't know how the average compares but as the top is world class i assume the system that produces them is of a reasonable standard.

But I still believe that education to do some job is a serious obscenity and a sure path to failure as a society or nation.

you don't become a doctor, engineer, teacher or plumber without training/education to be one, obscenity? no just reality. expanding education , as i've said , delivers considerable benefits.

But for our society to succeed and not continue our decline into third world status we need informed citizens. We need citizens that want to be informed and understand that they have a duty to be informed.

you need to recognize some just don't care as long as their needs are met. of course they should be "informed" or have that option, if they prefer not to be then that has to be accepted.

It is not a matter of academic ability, it is a matter of national and societal necessity. We need voters that can understand issues, history, past events and the consequences of those events.

so is it the education system and/or the political system that, to you, is failing? ideology is a big driver in how people vote, regardless of education, and that can cause problems when extreme ideology gains mass support ('30's germany being a prime example). the numerous cults that surface often contain well educated people, something i find hard to understand but it happens. i'm not sure the education system is entirely to blame for your concerns, noting that the more private operated schools the more ideological "imprinting" occurs, but in general i agree with your opinion re voters.

Citizenship provides benefits but should also carry duties and responsibilities. One is to be an informed citizen. It is not a matter of whether or not someone wants to be informed or if they just don't care, it is their duty and responsibility to be informed.

Slaves can be taught to be doctors or lawyers and we do. But we do not teach citizens how to be citizens.

while i'm on a roll lets throw another aspect in, media. does the "media" do it's "job" in terms of presenting facts to the population that are of real importance? really who cares if x gets caught in bed with y, how does it help if some minor politician gets caught taking a bribe in the "big picture". maybe the "numero uno" obscenity is the failure of "media" to present facts and opinions on issues that are important. how did the NYT , some 20 blocks from wall street fail in 2007 (earlier would have been helpful...) to notice bear stein, wp morgan and lehman had major balance sheet problems? i wonder if an obsession with "new" news obscures the really important news and the detailed analysis that needs to go with it to allow people to make " informed" decisions. maybe it's more a matter of finding the real cause of why voters aren't informed, maybe no one ( the media) informs them and presents a variety of analysis/opinions to allow "informed" opinions to be made.

That is another great example of how deadly failing to educate citizens really is. We decided to destroy the concept of news and reporting. It was a decision made by citizens to replace news and reporting with entertainment.

In the US we used to have limits on how many media outlets could be owned by a single corporation or individual; we had a "Chinese Wall" between news reporting/editorial and advertising; we had "equal time" requirements and editorial comments had to be clearly marked as such.

Citizens supported repealing all those regulations.

[HughC]

Citizenship provides benefits but should also carry duties and responsibilities. One is to be an informed citizen. It is not a matter of whether or not someone wants to be informed or if they just don't care, it is their duty and responsibility to be informed.

Duties and responsibilities are defined by laws. Democracy in the US allows you participate in the political process if you choose to, here in Australia voting is compulsory so you participate regardless of personal choice.

while i'm on a roll lets throw another aspect in, media. does the "media" do it's "job" in terms of presenting facts to the population that are of real importance? really who cares if x gets caught in bed with y, how does it help if some minor politician gets caught taking a bribe in the "big picture". maybe the "numero uno" obscenity is the failure of "media" to present facts and opinions on issues that are important. how did the NYT , some 20 blocks from wall street fail in 2007 (earlier would have been helpful...) to notice bear stein, wp morgan and lehman had major balance sheet problems? i wonder if an obsession with "new" news obscures the really important news and the detailed analysis that needs to go with it to allow people to make " informed" decisions. maybe it's more a matter of finding the real cause of why voters aren't informed, maybe no one ( the media) informs them and presents a variety of analysis/opinions to allow "informed" opinions to be made.

That is another great example of how deadly failing to educate citizens really is.

No it's not. To be "informed" you have to have information and have it presented in manner that allows an opinion to be formed. Highly educated people still need to be have information presented to them.

It was a decision made by citizens to replace news and reporting with entertainment.

In the US we used to have limits on how many media outlets could be owned by a single corporation or individual; we had a "Chinese Wall" between news reporting/editorial and advertising; we had "equal time" requirements and editorial comments had to be clearly marked as such.

Citizens supported repealing all those regulations.

Democracy in action, maybe not a good example though.

I think education is just part of the issues we've discussed, l agree better education is beneficial but I don't believe it will solve all the problems you mention. Presenting information to the people involves media, governments , industry/business, analysts, academics and so on. Given education standards are ( a lot) higher than 100yrs ago and open to all your argument that education leads to a better "informed" society seems to conflict with your position that people are now less "informed", if people are less "informed" maybe other factors need to be looked at.

[jar]

Duties and responsibilities are defined by laws. Democracy in the US allows you participate in the political process if you choose to, here in Australia voting is compulsory so you participate regardless of personal choice.

while i'm on a roll lets throw another aspect in, media. does the "media" do it's "job" in terms of presenting facts to the population that are of real importance? really who cares if x gets caught in bed with y, how does it help if some minor politician gets caught taking a bribe in the "big picture". maybe the "numero uno" obscenity is the failure of "media" to present facts and opinions on issues that are important. how did the NYT , some 20 blocks from wall street fail in 2007 (earlier would have been helpful...) to notice bear stein, wp morgan and lehman had major balance sheet problems? i wonder if an obsession with "new" news obscures the really important news and the detailed analysis that needs to go with it to allow people to make " informed" decisions. maybe it's more a matter of finding the real cause of why voters aren't informed, maybe no one ( the media) informs them and presents a variety of analysis/opinions to allow "informed" opinions to be made.

That is another great example of how deadly failing to educate citizens really is.

No it's not. To be "informed" you have to have information and have it presented in manner that allows an opinion to be formed. Highly educated people still need to be have information presented to them.

It was a decision made by citizens to replace news and reporting with entertainment.

In the US we used to have limits on how many media outlets could be owned by a single corporation or individual; we had a "Chinese Wall" between news reporting/editorial and advertising; we had "equal time" requirements and editorial comments had to be clearly marked as such.

Citizens supported repealing all those regulations.

Democracy in action, maybe not a good example though.

I think education is just part of the issues we've discussed, l agree better education is beneficial but I don't believe it will solve all the problems you mention. Presenting information to the people involves media, governments , industry/business, analysts, academics and so on. Given education standards are ( a lot) higher than 100yrs ago and open to all your argument that education leads to a better "informed" society seems to conflict with your position that people are now less "informed", if people are less "informed" maybe other factors need to be looked at.

I think the idea that "Duties and responsibilities are defined by laws. " is another obscenity and absurdity. Duties and responsibilities need to go far beyond just laws. The idea that laws are what define such things misses the whole point of morality and personal integrity. Laws are examples of when morality and integrity have failed. In fact every law is an indicator of cultural failure.

I have never claimed that education would solve any problems, what I am claiming without teaching how to be a citizen and the duties and responsibilities of citizenship we cannot hope to solve any of the problems. If we are going to try to remain a democratic republic as opposed to an fascist oligarchy then we will need an informed citizenry.

Nor have I seen any evidence or indication that education standards are any higher or even as high as they were 100 years ago.

[HughC]

I think the idea that "Duties and responsibilities are defined by laws. " is another obscenity and absurdity. Duties and responsibilities need to go far beyond just laws. The idea that laws are what define such things misses the whole point of morality and personal integrity. Laws are examples of when morality and integrity have failed. In fact every law is an indicator of cultural failure.

Every society for thousands of years has used laws/constitutions to define acceptable behaviour, rights, duties and responsibilities ie the basic framework . If duties and responsibilities go beyond. well and good but laws define acceptable behaviour and, as such, reflect (or should) the moral and ethical desires of the society. Laws are not indicators of "cultural failure" but rather an indicator of a society defining it's values.

[QUOTE=jar;75283

I have never claimed that education would solve any problems, what I am claiming without teaching how to be a citizen and the duties and responsibilities of citizenship we cannot hope to solve any of the problems. [/QUOTE]

I'm not sure this comes across as you meant, it seems to contradict itself. I agree that teaching how to be a citizen and the duties and responsibilities of citizenship should be part of the skill set that education should provide.

Nor have I seen any evidence or indication that education standards are any higher or even as high as they were 100 years ago.

The percentage of those receiving an education today is far greater than 100yrs ago, this alone increases the average standard of education across the US ( and Australia) as well the average time spent in being educated has increased, this has led to better educated and trained teachers, to say these facts haven't increased the education standards is wrong.