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Thread: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    [QUOTE=HughC;75291]

    Every society for thousands of years has used laws/constitutions to define acceptable behaviour, rights, duties and responsibilities ie the basic framework . If duties and responsibilities go beyond. well and good but laws define acceptable behaviour and, as such, reflect (or should) the moral and ethical desires of the society. Laws are not indicators of "cultural failure" but rather an indicator of a society defining it's values.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar;75283

    I have never claimed that education would solve any problems, what I am claiming without teaching how to be a citizen and the duties and responsibilities of citizenship we cannot hope to solve any of the problems. [/QUOTE

    I'm not sure this comes across as you meant, it seems to contradict itself. I agree that teaching how to be a citizen and the duties and responsibilities of citizenship should be part of the skill set that education should provide.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Nor have I seen any evidence or indication that education standards are any higher or even as high as they were 100 years ago.
    The percentage of those receiving an education today is far greater than 100yrs ago, this alone increases the average standard of education across the US ( and Australia) as well the average time spent in being educated has increased, this has led to better educated and trained teachers, to say these facts haven't increased the education standards is wrong.
    Perhaps the quantity of education has increased for everyone in the past century,but the quality--at
    least in the US--has decreased. Some of the subjects that a student from a one-room schoolhouse needed to know
    would put most US college students to shame today.


    John

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumgaikid View Post
    Perhaps the quantity of education has increased for everyone in the past century,but the quality--at
    least in the US--has decreased. Some of the subjects that a student from a one-room schoolhouse needed to know
    would put most US college students to shame today.
    Hi John,

    This from the Yale site

    Century of Difference

    indicates that this notion is false. The US is a vastly better educated society now than 100 yrs ago.

    Regards
    Hugh

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC
    Every society for thousands of years has used laws/constitutions to define acceptable behaviour, rights, duties and responsibilities ie the basic framework . If duties and responsibilities go beyond. well and good but laws define acceptable behaviour and, as such, reflect (or should) the moral and ethical desires of the society. Laws are not indicators of "cultural failure" but rather an indicator of a society defining it's values.
    I agrre that societies use laws to define acceptable behaviour but strongly disagree that that is not a clear indication of moral failure in that culture and society. Laws are enacted to try to force compliance to some standard and can be moral or immoral. I addition, a truly moral culture or society would not need laws.

    Laws are not intrinsically either moral or ethical.

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC
    Quote Originally Posted by jar

    I have never claimed that education would solve any problems, what I am claiming without teaching how to be a citizen and the duties and responsibilities of citizenship we cannot hope to solve any of the problems.



    I'm not sure this comes across as you meant, it seems to contradict itself. I agree that teaching how to be a citizen and the duties and responsibilities of citizenship should be part of the skill set that education should provide.
    Where is there any contradiction? Can a doctor become a good doctor without education as a doctor? Can a mechanic be a good mechanic without learning mechanics?

    Why should we expect citizens to be proficient citizens with learning how to be citizens?

    Why should we look for a moral and ethical society without teach citizens how to be moral and ethical?

    If we do not educate citizens about what happened in the past and what were the consequences of those events can we expect today's citizens to not repeat past errors?

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC
    The percentage of those receiving an education today is far greater than 100yrs ago, this alone increases the average standard of education across the US ( and Australia) as well the average time spent in being educated has increased, this has led to better educated and trained teachers, to say these facts haven't increased the education standards is wrong.
    Remember, I was around three quarters of a century ago and my parents and grandparents were around far more than 100 years ago. What evidence do you have that supports your assertion? Are you conflating formal schooling with education? Do you have evidence that the average time spent in being educated is increasing? Do you have actual evidence that people today are better educated?

    We are talking about the US here and honestly, folk in the US seem on the whole to be totally uneducated except in the very narrow area of training for a specific job and not at all for being citizens. When compared to other nations the US is usually in the middle of the pack at best and never at the top in any area.

    Here is an excerpt from one report and there are many more example.

    The United States may be a superpower but in education we lag behind. In a recent comparison of academic performance in 57 countries, students in Finland came out on top overall. Finnish 15-year-olds did the best in science and came in second in math. Other top-performing countries were: Hong Kong, Canada, Taiwan, Estonia, Japan and Korea.
    How did the U.S. do?

    Students in the United States performed near the middle of the pack. On average 16 other industrialized countries scored above the United States in science, and 23 scored above us in math. The reading scores for the United States had to be tossed due to a printing error.


    Experts noted that the United States' scores remained about the same in math between 2003 and 2006, the two most recent years the test — the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) — was given. Meanwhile, many other nations, Estonia and Poland being two, improved their scores and moved past the U.S.
    Researchers also made note of the fact that while the United States has one of the biggest gaps between high- and low-performing students in an industrialized nation, Finland has one of the smallest. Students in Finland perform remarkably well, regardless of the school they attend.
    Note that even here the capability for critical thinking or ethics or morality or any of the tools needed to be a citizen are not even tested.

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    As I see this back and forth, I'm wondering if some of the misunderstanding is our different countries. I recognize what jar is on about because I learned it also, in school. These are part of what I would have pointed to as the things the US did different, especially earlier in it's history.

    However, I am nearly the definition of parochial. I'm just now in my fifties looking forward to being able to travel. I have been differences between what we learn here, and what others learn, strangely enough for this thread as a positive for US education, at least 35 years ago.

    I have always assumed that UK(and I'm meaning pretty much the entire empire, including Australia - please correct me if my terminology is wrong) received the same. But maybe not. So, did you learn that one of the pillars of your democracy was an educated citizenry? In the first 12 years of school, the compulsory portion?

    If this was a central tenet( along with a free press, and now I'm about to go down our bill of rights, which I'm assuming were not covered as nearly democratic gospel - yep, I'm parochial!) OK was the education portion explained as so central to a functioning democracy?

    Also, we really messed up the broadcasting framework we had also, yours we🔛
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Seems more intact. (Sorry for the goof at the end of the last post).

    I'll end here...

    Cheers
    Mike
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Too many extreme viewpoints. The extreme views are ridiculous. In the 1990s it seems the practice of greed was enshrined such that it wasn't even veiled any more, but right in your face. I blame the Republican Party for this. Typical of this was trashing the president over an affair just for obvious political advantage. Obvious to any and all, and no attempt to mask the intent at all. After this, anything went.

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    I agrre that societies use laws to define acceptable behaviour but strongly disagree that that is not a clear indication of moral failure in that culture and society. Laws are enacted to try to force compliance to some standard and can be moral or immoral. I addition, a truly moral culture or society would not need laws.

    Laws are not intrinsically either moral or ethical.
    I should mention when I say "law" I mean it in the larger sense that includes constitutions and like. The "perfect" society has never existed, never will ( or seems unlikely) and immoral and unethical behaviour has existed since society began, it never failed because it it's never existed. Even Christianity is based on 10 laws fundamental to being a christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Where is there any contradiction? Can a doctor become a good doctor without education as a doctor? Can a mechanic be a good mechanic without learning mechanics?
    Why should we expect citizens to be proficient citizens with learning how to be citizens?
    Why should we look for a moral and ethical society without teach citizens how to be moral and ethical?
    If we do not educate citizens about what happened in the past and what were the consequences of those events can we expect today's citizens to not repeat past errors?
    I've already provided you with my views on most of those points, as I said our views aren't all that different.

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    you don't become a doctor, engineer, teacher or plumber without training/education to be one, obscenity? no just reality. expanding education , as i've said , delivers considerable benefits.
    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    . some of the skills i'd call essential are the obvious, reading, writing, maths and at a basic level. i'd add ethics/morals (noting the bias that can occur) as well because the less people that go before the courts the better and a knowledge of how society "works"
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    What evidence do you have that supports your assertion? Are you conflating formal schooling with education? Do you have evidence that the average time spent in being educated is increasing? Do you have actual evidence that people today are better educated?
    It's a long read but appears to be reputable, from the Yale site

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    We are talking about the US here and honestly, folk in the US seem on the whole to be totally uneducated except in the very narrow area of training for a specific job and not at all for being citizens. When compared to other nations the US is usually in the middle of the pack at best and never at the top in any area.
    We're going the same way, I sometimes wonder if the broadness and scope of our education system means some areas suffer so comparisons don't always show the whole picture. We attract a lot of Asian students, I commented to an old Japanese Uni lecturer friend that "Asian students perform so well", his reply "Asian student !! sit at front, listen,attend every lecture,take notes, come exam Asian student come top, wonderful students but oh.... so boring... I hate them". I've always remembered that !! and found his comment at odds with my perception of Asian students. More to education than results in his opinion.

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sumgaikid View Post
    Perhaps the quantity of education has increased for everyone in the past century,but the quality--at
    least in the US--has decreased. Some of the subjects that a student from a one-room schoolhouse needed to know
    would put most US college students to shame today.
    Hi John,

    This from the Yale site

    Century of Difference

    indicates that this notion is false. The US is a vastly better educated society now than 100 yrs ago.

    Regards
    Hugh
    On this,Hugh,we'll have to agree to disagree. The content of the Yale-inspired book seems to point to
    a greater amount of Americans getting an education then-to-now as opposed to the amount of subjects
    learned then and some done away with in recent decades. An obvious subject is the lack of teaching cur-
    sive here in America,a subject that has been debated here and in the other fp forum. Why would we bring it
    up if we didn't find articles about the matter? I'm not sure about how it is in Austrailia,but with respect to
    education here on this side of the pond "Dumb & Dumber" isn't just a movie title--it's what's seen lacking in
    our education system here.

    While more folks in the 20th century were able to get an education,it doesn't mean that the amount of sub-
    jects taught remained the same.


    John

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by LagNut View Post
    As I see this back and forth, I'm wondering if some of the misunderstanding is our different countries. I recognize what jar is on about because I learned it also, in school. These are part of what I would have pointed to as the things the US did different, especially earlier in it's history.

    However, I am nearly the definition of parochial. I'm just now in my fifties looking forward to being able to travel. I have been differences between what we learn here, and what others learn, strangely enough for this thread as a positive for US education, at least 35 years ago.

    I have always assumed that UK(and I'm meaning pretty much the entire empire, including Australia - please correct me if my terminology is wrong) received the same. But maybe not. So, did you learn that one of the pillars of your democracy was an educated citizenry? In the first 12 years of school, the compulsory portion?

    If this was a central tenet( along with a free press, and now I'm about to go down our bill of rights, which I'm assuming were not covered as nearly democratic gospel - yep, I'm parochial!) OK was the education portion explained as so central to a functioning democracy?

    Also, we really messed up the broadcasting framework we had also, yours we🔛
    In simple terms, no, education and democracy didn't seem to be linked. Nor was the first 12 yrs compulsorily, only till 15yrs of age. Nor was the UK system connected to the Australian system, each state operated it's own system as well which meant very different standards in certain areas across the country. Really a fairly narrow education with the basics being dominant. A much broader range now and as a result the basics suffer but overall children have access to so much more.

    I don't think my opinions vary much from Jar's in reality, it's more a matter of where the standard is set.

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumgaikid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sumgaikid View Post
    Perhaps the quantity of education has increased for everyone in the past century,but the quality--at
    least in the US--has decreased. Some of the subjects that a student from a one-room schoolhouse needed to know
    would put most US college students to shame today.
    Hi John,

    This from the Yale site

    Century of Difference

    indicates that this notion is false. The US is a vastly better educated society now than 100 yrs ago.

    Regards
    Hugh
    On this,Hugh,we'll have to agree to disagree. The content of the Yale-inspired book seems to point to
    a greater amount of Americans getting an education then-to-now as opposed to the amount of subjects
    learned then and some done away with in recent decades. An obvious subject is the lack of teaching cur-
    sive here in America,a subject that has been debated here and in the other fp forum. Why would we bring it
    up if we didn't find articles about the matter? I'm not sure about how it is in Austrailia,but with respect to
    education here on this side of the pond "Dumb & Dumber" isn't just a movie title--it's what's seen lacking in
    our education system here.

    While more folks in the 20th century were able to get an education,it doesn't mean that the amount of sub-
    jects taught remained the same.


    John
    Well the figures are pretty clear John, having a maths background (pure maths) the stats talk for me. Interestingly the most brilliant mathematician I encountered was American ( also the strangest !! Dr Tom Donaldson ) and of course education in the US has to be enhanced by old friend Prof. Gillian Banfield now at Berkely.

    Regards
    Hugh

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    Senior Member jar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post



    It's a long read but appears to be reputable, from the Yale site

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    That Yale study makes the mistake (common among folk in academia) that education means formal education in a school setting. Schools do play a part in certification but even there in the US that function is being perverted. There is a trend in the US not touched on or even mentioned in the study of 'avoidance schools'; schools that are deliberately designed and created to avoid exposing students to whole areas of knowledge. In the US today the number of 'avoidance schools' is far greater than the number of public schools. The trend continues into higher education but with far fewer 'avoidance colleges and universities'. There are even 'avoidance accreditation boards'.

    The number of bodies sitting in a class for a number of years says absolutely nothing about education.

    In addition, the trend in the US in public per-college education is towards ever increasing housing project schools; that the more students you can squeeze into a facility the better.
    Last edited by jar; April 15th, 2014 at 05:50 AM.

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post

    That Yale study makes the mistake (common among folk in academia) that education means formal education in a school setting. Schools do play a part in certification but even there in the US that function is being perverted. There is a trend in the US not touched on or even mentioned in the study of 'avoidance schools'; schools that are deliberately designed and created to avoid exposing students to whole areas of knowledge. In the US today the number of 'avoidance schools' is far greater than the number of public schools. The trend continues into higher education but with far fewer 'avoidance colleges and universities'. There are even 'avoidance accreditation boards'.

    The number of bodies sitting in a class for a number of years says absolutely nothing about education.

    In addition, the trend in the US in public per-college education is towards ever increasing housing project schools; that the more students you can squeeze into a facility the better.
    Education, of course, encompasses more than "formal" education still the Yale paper was only looking at that aspect, perhaps no mistake just outside the scope of the study. There is no doubt the standard of the education has risen within the US population, whether that standard has delivered what you think it should have is a different matter and spending more time at school, at the very least, indicates a greater commitment to education regardless of the outcome.

    I think the move to non secular and non government schools is definitely a looming issue in terms of the ideology sometimes involved. To a degree this is overcome in Australia by a final exam that all students must sit that determines their entry to university and regardless a set curriculum must be followed although this still delivers a wide choice of subjects.

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post

    There is no doubt the standard of the education has risen within the US population, whether that standard has delivered what you think it should have is a different matter and spending more time at school, at the very least, indicates a greater commitment to education regardless of the outcome.
    But again you repeat the claim that the standard of education has risen without providing any evidence in support of that assertion when study after study shows US students performing poorly in EVERY area tested. Spending more time at school does not indicate anything more than lip service, certainly no commitment to education.

    Remember that in the US there is no National Curricula, no National tests. And every independent test comparing US and other nations reflects poorly on the US.

    How can we maintain a Democratic Republic instead of a Fascist Oligarchy when the citizens are not educated and informed?

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post

    That Yale study makes the mistake (common among folk in academia) that education means formal education in a school setting. Schools do play a part in certification but even there in the US that function is being perverted. There is a trend in the US not touched on or even mentioned in the study of 'avoidance schools'; schools that are deliberately designed and created to avoid exposing students to whole areas of knowledge. In the US today the number of 'avoidance schools' is far greater than the number of public schools. The trend continues into higher education but with far fewer 'avoidance colleges and universities'. There are even 'avoidance accreditation boards'.

    The number of bodies sitting in a class for a number of years says absolutely nothing about education.

    In addition, the trend in the US in public per-college education is towards ever increasing housing project schools; that the more students you can squeeze into a facility the better.
    Education, of course, encompasses more than "formal" education still the Yale paper was only looking at that aspect, perhaps no mistake just outside the scope of the study. There is no doubt the standard of the education has risen within the US population, whether that standard has delivered what you think it should have is a different matter and spending more time at school, at the very least, indicates a greater commitment to education regardless of the outcome.

    I think the move to non secular and non government schools is definitely a looming issue in terms of the ideology sometimes involved. To a degree this is overcome in Australia by a final exam that all students must sit that determines their entry to university and regardless a set curriculum must be followed although this still delivers a wide choice of subjects.
    I agree with the idea of a National test to determine whether a student is able to enter university. Unfortunately,
    as jar has said,there isn't a national test here in the US to determine a student's ability to go to college. The
    determining factor is whether or not the student can pay. The universities are more concerned with money
    that a student's academic capability.


    John

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Quote Originally Posted by jar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HughC View Post

    There is no doubt the standard of the education has risen within the US population, whether that standard has delivered what you think it should have is a different matter and spending more time at school, at the very least, indicates a greater commitment to education regardless of the outcome.
    But again you repeat the claim that the standard of education has risen without providing any evidence in support of that assertion when study after study shows US students performing poorly in EVERY area tested. Spending more time at school does not indicate anything more than lip service, certainly no commitment to education.

    Remember that in the US there is no National Curricula, no National tests. And every independent test comparing US and other nations reflects poorly on the US.

    How can we maintain a Democratic Republic instead of a Fascist Oligarchy when the citizens are not educated and informed?
    I have provided information to support that claim. It shows an increased level of achievement and an increase in the percentage of people obtaining more education. It's you who need to demonstrate that doubling the amount of schooling and high school/ collage graduation rates going from 20% to 80% failed to increase the overall education level within the population. There's also : 120 Years of American Education. A Statistical Portrait....if you want to read something really boring.

    There is no doubt education standards have risen imo, it appears to me that they don't produce the results you would like them to produce and that's the issue you have with education. Given we both seem to agree on what should be taught, in a general sense, it appears to me this line of debate has reached the end where we'll just have to disagree on this point !! It's been an interesting topic and I've enjoyed hearing your thoughts. Now I'd better go back to the OP and see what else needs further discussion...

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    I wish I'd spotted this thread a little earlier, before it started to get so specific. I'll start with what I began typing before I noticed there were two more pages, and then try to catch up.

    Something that has troubled me since the fall of Communism (or at least the fall of Leninist/Stalinist inflected Marxism, which doesn't appear to be quite the same thing) is that people have pointed to the event and shouted, "Ah, there. Capitalism wins!" It's always struck me as very much like watching a couple of giant monsters fighting in your city, and rejoicing because Godzilla won; yes, the other option was bad, but is this one so much better?

    I agree that education is important in the making of functional citizens, but the sort of education is important too. I'm coming at this, by the way, as one who trained to be a Social Studies teacher-- you can only have a good, functional democratic system if the the citizens are (1) educated in the history of their nation (ideally with reference to that nation's place in a larger global context), (2) educated in the way in which the national government works, and (3) trained to use their thinkers in a critical manner. (2) and (3) are clearly lacking in the current situation, because there's no other way to explain the popularity of the Everyone For Himself philosophy and affiliated shifting to the right that seems to be affecting almost every western nation, and which are certainly running rampant in North America. Since most discussions in the area of education of late focus on standardized testing (not a great encourager of critical thinking) and loading the kids with marketable skills, I think a comparison of whether the modern person is more or less educated than a century-old counterpart is moot; the SORT of education needed for the matter under consideration isn't even on the table in that discussion.

    What we also seem to need, at least in North America, is some sort of properly representative system. Canada's "first past the post" and the US's "me or him" both seem to produce ridiculous results (up here, 40% of the votes cast produces an irresistible majority of seats in the legislature; not quite right), and the whole idea of corporations = people and $ = free speech seriously need addressing if there's any point to the notion of "one person, one vote".

    I grew up in a province with a long tradition of low-wattage socialism; government-held corporations still hold car insurance and telephone service, and they're still very cheap here. I don't understand the idea of paying to see a doctor if you're sick. There's nothing WRONG with the government sticking its nose in, if the point is to do good for the greatest number and the means is carefully considered.

    So I agree with everything Jar said at the top of the thread.
    Given to daily lunatic raving, but also capable of more prolonged pen-centricity.

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    And just when I thought this tread was starting to die....new blood !!

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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Hughc
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    HughC

    Thanks for your reply. I do recall the public education system being discussed as being an essential part of our system, and part of the innovation that was the US.

    I am enjoying your boring links, they're anything but...

    Mike
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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    Senior Member LagNut's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Great Obscenities in the US today.

    Ernst,

    I'm jazzed to see you here. Why am I not surprised you taught?

    The US I grew up in would be considered positively communist today, by the rhetoric put out by our loudest gasbags.

    Mike
    Clearly they had a higher and more comprehensive conception of the duties of society toward it's members than had the lawgivers of Europe of the time, and they imposed obligations upon it that were shirked elsewhere... But it is the provisions for public education which, from the very first, throw into the clearest relief the originality of American civilization.

    Alexis de Tocqeuville "Democracy in America" (George Lawrence Translation)

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