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Thread: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

  1. #21
    Senior Member david i's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger W. View Post
    David;

    A flat top also has flat sides. Perhaps we should be calling them "flat ended cylidricals" that would be much clearer to aliens intercepting our transmissions.

    Roger W.
    I would modify your statement to: Some "flat top" pens have flat sides.

    Indeed, a top largely is independent from a side, when it comes to angles.

    Perhaps we can call them just Sheaffer Cylinders, as the flat side seems to be more defining than the literal flat top (which the Junior does have). But, no, that's certainly not consistent with long standing collector convention, which we now know is not original Sheaffer nomenclature.

    You do more with early Sheaffers than I do, but iirc, ironically not all the cylindrical 1912-1930 pens have flat ends. Don't some of the early pens have a bit of a dome to the top? Are these non flat-topped Flat-Tops?

    And isn't there a bit of slope to the butt end even of the cylinder-era pens?

    But, tangents aside, we do now break through to level 2:

    • Collectors tend to call "Flat Top" the minimal-to-no-taper pens shaped like those seen in 1920's catalogues that have nice square ends (save for the domey early ones, which still tend to be lumped with the flat tops).

    • Even though the Junior from the mid 1930's has as flat a top as the earlier style pens, because the sides are more streamlined than what Sheaffer collectors (Sheaffer itself somewhat out of the picture now for this chat) typically call flat-tops, collectors tend not to consider it a flat-top pen.


    As to "truncated". That term appears with the mid 1930's Sheaffer Juniors such as I showed, as the pens looked like chopped Sheaffer Balances (the streamlined cigar-ish pens that dominated Sheaffer's 1930s). Truncated Balance is not an unreasonable description for the early Sheaffer Juinor, especially as the Junior gained the Balance shape not much later. The pen does evoke a bit the streamlining of Duofold.

    regards

    d
    Last edited by david i; April 21st, 2014 at 02:59 PM.
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Senior Member gweddig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger W. View Post
    Perhaps we should be calling them "flat ended cylidricals" ...
    Roger W.
    Roger, should we point our browsers to www.sheafferflatendedcylindricals.com from now on? ;-)

    (great topic, unfortunately I didn't have anything of substance to add)

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Thanks for all the input on the, most of it has been most helpful.

    Putting my thanks in before the thread gets locked.

    So my pen turned out to me a 3-25SC or Short with Clip, still not sure if the cap is correct for this pen though as I have now seen quite a few 3-25SC pens with the same cap fitted and quite a few with a different cap fitted, some have a gap between the clip and the top and some don't. Could it be that Sheaffer actually fitted both caps rather than one being wrong!

    Thanks again

    Paul
    Last edited by Paul-H; April 22nd, 2014 at 06:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Paul;

    I've said your cap is right the whole way along! It is the nib, due to the lateness of the cap, that is out of place and should be a "3" and not a "3-25" to be production.

    Why on earth would this thread get locked? Marginally lively debate about what constitutes a flattop?

    Roger W.

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul-H View Post
    Could it be that Sheaffer actually fitted both caps rather than one being wrong!
    Who said one of the caps was wrong?

    --Daniel

  6. #26
    Senior Member david i's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul-H View Post
    Could it be that Sheaffer actually fitted both caps rather than one being wrong!
    Who said one of the caps was wrong?

    --Daniel
    Why did anyone have to say one of the caps was wrong?

    -David
    Last edited by david i; April 22nd, 2014 at 07:35 AM.
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Senior Member david i's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul-H View Post
    Hi all

    SNIP

    I thought it might have been a Junior but seems too small going on the sizes I have found for a Junior, did they make any thing smaller than a Junior?

    Thanks for any help

    Paul
    To expand on the notion of Junior, since Roger took a swipe at beloved Parker, different companies (or same company at different times) mapped the word differently onto product line.

    For Parker's original Duofold, Junior referenced a size/model within a series. Junior did not suggest low-tier. Perhaps if Dad was a Senior, then his son was a Junior

    For Parker's Vacumatic, Junior began to reference a price point/feature set instead of just a size within a same-cachet family. Indeed while Vacumatic was a high line pen for Parker, the Vacumatic Junior referenced a lower tier Vacumatic, with less luxury-oriented nib and trim elements. But, even a a Vacumatic Junior was a higher tier (as a lower tier Vac) pen than other lower-tier Parker pen families of the time, such as Parkette and Challenger. One could have a Vacumatic Junior in larger size than some of the non-Junior Vacumatics of the time, showing that the word had come to indicate tier more than just a given size.

    For Sheaffer during the 1930's, Junior also referenced a market niche, a price point, a pen tier rather than a size. As with Parker's Vacumatic from same era, one could find pens smaller than the Sheaffer Junior, shorter at least. The Sheaffer Balance Petite was shorter. Suspect a the short slender flat-end pen (The Sheaffer Cylindrical!) also was shorter at least. Some might have been made as late as the Junior. A much earlier 1920's pen the Pigmy was frankly tiny by comparison.

    regards

    David
    Last edited by david i; April 22nd, 2014 at 07:35 AM.
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Senior Member david i's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger W. View Post
    Paul;

    I've said your cap is right the whole way along! It is the nib, due to the lateness of the cap, that is out of place and should be a "3" and not a "3-25" to be production.

    Why on earth would this thread get locked? Marginally lively debate about what constitutes a flattop?

    Roger W.
    If this thread is locked, how did you post your question about it being locked?

    regards

    -d
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Magic

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Perhaps it is time I should offer in this forum a general introduction to collecting Sheaffer fountain pens. Figure minimal commentary and perhaps 5-6 trays of pens, recognizing dates won't be exact on trays based on rough generations, covering key pens, just ten pens shown per category.

    Early: Flat-Top era: 1908-12 to 1930+

    1930's: Balance era: Balance/Crest/Sub-brands

    1940s: Triumph: War Years/Post-War Celluloid/ Introduction of Forticel/ Touchdown

    1950s: TM TD/ Snorkel/ Cartridge Pens

    1960's: PFM/Imperial

    1970's-Current: Imperial/Targa/Modern Crest/Legacy

    ----------

    But, however will I find pens to illustrate the categories?

    Oh, wait, never mind...


    -d
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger W. View Post
    Paul;

    I've said your cap is right the whole way along! It is the nib, due to the lateness of the cap, that is out of place and should be a "3" and not a "3-25" to be production.

    Why on earth would this thread get locked? Marginally lively debate about what constitutes a flattop?

    Roger W.
    Thanks for shining a light on this, Roger. As we see in this thread, there's so much misinformation out there, and so little time to address it all.

    --Daniel

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    Senior Member david i's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger W. View Post
    Paul;

    I've said your cap is right the whole way along! It is the nib, due to the lateness of the cap, that is out of place and should be a "3" and not a "3-25" to be production.

    Why on earth would this thread get locked? Marginally lively debate about what constitutes a flattop?

    Roger W.
    Thanks for shining a light on this, Roger. As we see in this thread, there's so much misinformation out there, and so little time to address it all.

    --Daniel
    Yes, good thing some of us share the information.

    Of note, Why did anyone have to have said one of the caps was wrong?

    -David
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernst Bitterman View Post
    I've been pondering whether to call that style of Junior a "streamlined flat-top" in the mode of Parker's '30s Duofolds. If I do so publicly, I'll be very careful to keep it in lower case letters
    Your caution is understandable! Though I will observe that Sheaffer did call their cylindrical instruments "flat tops" (as was then common parlance in the trade) once they needed distinguishing from the tapered models, and they did not apply that term to the later "semi-Balance" Junior as far as I am aware.; it's apparent that model was considered a member of the newer tapered line, not the old flat top line.

    I appreciate your effort to take care to avoid promulgating erroneous information about nomenclature; there's plenty of that going around already, and it's not good for the hobby to add yet more.

    --Daniel

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Of note, Why did anyone have to have said one of the caps was wrong?

    Just sayin'...

    -David
    Last edited by david i; April 22nd, 2014 at 09:58 PM.
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by gweddig View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger W. View Post
    Perhaps we should be calling them "flat ended cylidricals" ...
    Roger W.
    Roger, should we point our browsers to www.sheafferflatendedcylindricals.com from now on? ;-)

    (great topic, unfortunately I didn't have anything of substance to add)
    And your self-awareness in that regard is all too rare, so I tip my hat to you. Often others are not nearly so wise!

    --Daniel

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Of note, Why did anyone have to have said one of the caps was wrong?

    Just sayin'...

    -David
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger W. View Post
    It is not flat - it is tapered which is not the same thing at all.
    Quite so -- the Junior model first appeared in that semi-Balance instrument; the earlier pens Sheaffer and the trade called flat tops did not include a Junior model, as you of course are aware. As Sheaffer has a long history of implicitly denigrating competitors' products using subtle (and not-so-subtle) naming and design cues, I wonder if this was an instance of that technique at work.

    --Daniel

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Paul -

    To be clear -- W. A. Sheaffer, and pen dealers, used the term "flat top" for the style of pen you show in your post; it's not a fresh creation by modern collectors, contrary to uninformed claims one may encounter. And, as I stated, there is no Sheaffer flat top Junior model, as Sheaffer applied that designation. So the reality is not particularly fascinating, but it's important nonetheless. Beware the misinformation...

    --Daniel

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Of note, Why did anyone have to have said one of the caps was wrong?

    Just sayin'...

    -David
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Senior Member david i's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    Paul -

    To be clear -- W. A. Sheaffer, and pen dealers, used the term "flat top" for the style of pen you show in your post; it's not a fresh creation by modern collectors, contrary to uninformed claims one may encounter. And, as I stated, there is no Sheaffer flat top Junior model, as Sheaffer applied that designation. So the reality is not particularly fascinating, but it's important nonetheless. Beware the misinformation...

    --Daniel
    Entertaining to see Daniel's take on Roger's perspective.

    For those of you new to Sheaffer collecting, note that while no one knows everything, Roger likely is the best informed collector on the planet regarding early Sheaffers.

    Regards

    David
    David R. Isaacson, MD

    http://www.vacumania.com : Sales site for guaranteed, restored collectible pens.

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