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Thread: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

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    Default Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Hi all

    Dropped a bit of a clanger with this EvilBay purchase, my fault, not the sellers so no complaints.

    The Sheaffer Flat Top turned out to be quite a bit smaller than I was expecting, so small that I am having trouble trying to get an exact ID of the Model, can anyone help with a Model ID for me.

    Capped its 11.6cm = 4 25/64"
    Posted its 14.6cm = 5 17/32"
    Pen is 9.8cm = 3 32/64"

    In the photos below it can be seen next to my Sheaffer Balance Oversize

    I thought it might have been a Junior but seems too small going on the sizes I have found for a Junior, did they make any thing smaller than a Junior?

    Thanks for any help

    Paul









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    Senior Member Jeph's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Over at FPNuts there is a discussion FPNuts Sheaffer Flat Top Names
    that says that there is a short, a midget and even a pigmy. Maybe it would be best to ask over there if somebody can't help you out here.

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Thanks, I will have look over there.

    Paul

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Looks like Roger Wooten identified it for you here about a week ago.

    There is no such thing as a Sheaffer flat top Junior.

    --Daniel

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Ok so if it is a 3-25SC, then if I understand it correctly it has the wrong cap, what would the correct cap look like.

    Thanks

    Paul

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Would the cap on this one be the correct cap that mine should have

    Paul


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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul-H View Post
    Would the cap on this one be the correct cap that mine should have

    Paul

    We indeed discuss this sort a fair bit over at Fountain Pen Board.

    While pics are a bit limited, you likely have a proper cap.

    I'm guessing your pen lacks a lever pin and does not have two little pin holes surrounding the lever slot?

    The four people who know all the codes can ID many flat tops by numbers, but unlike many pens made by many makers, Sheaffer tended not to offer model names based just on size/trim, at least prior to about 1938. Too, flat-end pens last appear in concurrent-to-sale catalogues only until around 1930, though production continued or years, resulting in late-featured pens, for which we lack formal catalogue pages.

    regards

    david
    Last edited by david i; April 21st, 2014 at 10:34 AM.
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul-H View Post
    Ok so if it is a 3-25SC, then if I understand it correctly it has the wrong cap, what would the correct cap look like.

    Thanks

    Paul
    Who said it has the wrong cap?

    --Daniel

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul-H View Post
    Ok so if it is a 3-25SC, then if I understand it correctly it has the wrong cap, what would the correct cap look like.

    Thanks

    Paul
    Who said it has the wrong cap?

    --Daniel

    Why would anyone have to have said it has the wrong cap?

    -David
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by kirchh View Post
    Looks like Roger Wooten identified it for you here about a week ago.

    There is no such thing as a Sheaffer flat top Junior.

    --Daniel
    Fascinating. Yet, here is a Sheaffer Junior, its top and bottom both charmingly... flat. The ends are square to the long axis of the pen. No dome. No facets. Just engagingly... flat.





    I remain charmed how snippets of information, absent context, can fail to deliver the big picture.

    Perhaps a good place to start would be for Those-Who-Know to identify which pens Sheaffer explicitly described as "flat top". Moving from there and/or exploring collector convention where it differs from original company nomenclature, insights then can be offered as to why, perhaps, Sheaffer collectors consider Sheaffer Junior "flat tops" not to exist. There's so much education to be offered to newer collectors by embracing the "why". Old crusty jaded collectors can take so much for granted...



    regards

    David
    Last edited by david i; April 21st, 2014 at 09:02 AM.
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    David;

    It is not flat - it is tapered which is not the same thing at all.

    Roger W.

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger W. View Post
    David;

    It is not flat - it is tapered which is not the same thing at all.

    Roger W.
    Hi Roger,

    The top of the pen is quite flat. Indeed, with the pen held in the vertical, one could put things on the cap as if it were a shelf, in a stable equilibrium, unlike balancing things on a non-flat cap top, one with a dome, bevel, etc.

    It is, rather, the sides of the pen that are a bit tapered.

    I would not recommend then calling the pen a flat-side Sheaffer.

    BTW, here is a dictionary definition of flat:

    smooth and even; without marked lumps or indentations: a flat wall | trim the surface of the cake to make it completely flat.

    • not sloping: the flat roof of a garage.
    • having a broad level surface but little height or depth; shallow: a flat rectangular box | a flat cap.


    So, since some folks have specified that the Junior is not a flat top, would you care to identify those pens with which Sheaffer itself specifically used the term "flat top"? That might be a good place to start in exploring original nomenclature vs collector jargon.

    regards

    David
    Last edited by david i; April 21st, 2014 at 01:14 PM.
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    If you want to go with what everyone calls these they are called "truncated". Again not the same as what is called a flat top.

    Roger W.

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger W. View Post
    If you want to go with what everyone calls these they are called "truncated". Again not the same as what is called a flat top.

    Roger W.
    Hi Roger,

    In this sequence, I don't seek to "go with" anything. I have opened this tangent of discussion to shed light on collector convention (such as it is) for pen terms vs observational and original terms.

    I, personally, have no problem what with using "truncated" in association (though next we will have to explain, "truncated 'what'?") with the Sheaffer Junior I showed. Indeed, it would be odd for me to object given I have used that term routinely in association with that pen.

    However, truncation has nothing to do with whether something is flat or not. Indeed to truncate something can result in it becoming quite flat (see Dictionary Definition of "flat", a couple posts above).

    But, since it now has been said that there is no such thing as a Sheaffer Junior flat-top-- though no explanation was provided-- while I have shown that at least one Sheaffer Junior indeed has a flat top, I return again to exploration of collector jargon, since that might be of benefit to motivated new Sheaffer collectors reading this discussion.

    I notice no one has yet outlined which pens Sheaffer iteself did call flat-top (or "Flat-Top" or flat-topped, etc). That would be an excellent place to start, since we then can say what Sheaffer did call a flat-top pen. Then, we can explore exactly why the Junior (which is not flat-sided, but does have a flat top) might not be a flat top.

    regards

    david
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    As flattop was never a term Sheaffer used and is just a convention and as the truncated junior is conventionally not called a flattop, I win. I only win as this discussion has no real merits even though you see it as a legitimate discussion of collector jargon. Just so you know Sheaffer does distinguish the shape of the junior as "semi-streamlined" which would not apply to any of the earlier flattops therefore, it is not a flattop but, "semi-streamlined" (Sheaffer catalog 1935) or "truncated" (collector jargon).

    Roger W.

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    I've been pondering whether to call that style of Junior a "streamlined flat-top" in the mode of Parker's '30s Duofolds. If I do so publicly, I'll be very careful to keep it in lower case letters
    Given to daily lunatic raving, but also capable of more prolonged pen-centricity.

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger W. View Post
    As flattop was never a term Sheaffer used and is just a convention and as the truncated junior is conventionally not called a flattop, I win. I only win as this discussion has no real merits even though you see it as a legitimate discussion of collector jargon. Just so you know Sheaffer does distinguish the shape of the junior as "semi-streamlined" which would not apply to any of the earlier flattops therefore, it is not a flattop but, "semi-streamlined" (Sheaffer catalog 1935) or "truncated" (collector jargon).

    Roger W.
    Heh. Roger, there is no winning. Your quote above merely has put you in the arena to play, your entry ticket so to speak

    And, there is charm in finding oneself drawn into a conversation, even if it has no merits, right? Ahhh, subjectivity. To know it is to love it.

    Welcome to Thunder Dome, Raggedy Man...

    We thus have broken through the first level.

    There are no Sheaffer flat tops, according to Sheaffer.

    So, if we are to advise collectors that there are not Sheaffer Junior flat tops, we can start by advising them and by keeping in mind there are no flat tops at all, per Sheaffer.

    I have, of course, seen Sheaffer catalogue descriptions of the mid 1930's Junior.

    So, Roger, even putting aside the Parker/Sheaffer schism in the use of "Junior", the second level in this would be to explain-- since Sheaffer offered no pens it called "Flat-Tops"-- how collectors define Sheaffer "Flat-Top".

    regards

    david
    Last edited by david i; April 21st, 2014 at 02:37 PM.
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ernst Bitterman View Post
    I've been pondering whether to call that style of Junior a "streamlined flat-top" in the mode of Parker's '30s Duofolds. If I do so publicly, I'll be very careful to keep it in lower case letters
    While it is commonly called truncated I wouldn't have a problem with streamlined flat-top though, it is a carry over from another brand. We do have a huge problem with the Parker carryover in general due to the fact that they actually had the gall to call their short duofold "junior" which is why so many people call the SC Sheaffer models "juniors". Sheaffer actually called particular other pens juniors and short flattops aren't them.

    Roger W.

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    David;

    A flat top also has flat sides. Perhaps we should be calling them "flat ended cylidricals" that would be much clearer to aliens intercepting our transmissions.

    Roger W.

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    Default Re: Sheaffer Flat Top, What have I bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger W. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernst Bitterman View Post
    I've been pondering whether to call that style of Junior a "streamlined flat-top" in the mode of Parker's '30s Duofolds. If I do so publicly, I'll be very careful to keep it in lower case letters
    While it is commonly called truncated I wouldn't have a problem with streamlined flat-top though, it is a carry over from another brand. We do have a huge problem with the Parker carryover in general due to the fact that they actually had the gall to call their short duofold "junior" which is why so many people call the SC Sheaffer models "juniors". Sheaffer actually called particular other pens juniors and short flattops aren't them.

    Roger W.
    Hey, Parker was there first with the term.

    Sheaffer just screwed with it...

    -d
    David R. Isaacson, MD

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