Question about Ultra Fine / Needlepoint Nibs

[Silverbreeze]

Is there any value to the springiness of Gold in a UEF and finer nib?

From my reading it seems to be only in very special cases like Spencerian and other flashy forms where the springiness of a gold nib would be a plus. In Accountant type work, a steel nib would be fine and might even be preferred. Am I misunderstanding something?

Rather new to Specialized Nibs so forgive any ignorance,
no offense is meant.
All Stupidity is my own brain not being malleable enough to understand
Tom

[manoeuver]

I think you got it, Tom. If you're not looking to add shades or flex to your UEF writing, a steel nib is a good option.

That said, some people just like gold nibs, and that's ok too.

[AltecGreen]

The material the nib is made of is not always a good indicator of flex/springiness. Of course, if the nib is modern then it is not a bad rule of thumb. Vintage steel nibs can be quite flexible (e.g. wartime Japanese and Italian nibs). Modern dip pen nibs made for calligraphy are all made of steel. Also, most vintage pen companies made accountant/manifold nibs and they were all gold and really stiff.

[Jeph]

For accounting and similar work you definately do NOT want flex. Some spring is okay, but you want the nib to be stiff enough so that minor variations in pressure do not change the line. I prefer EF and smalller type nibs for most of my writing. For example I have an M200 with a wonderful 14K 140 EF nib from the 50's that puts down a tight .3 mm line but it is so flexible that slight variations in pressure make it wider, all the way to 1.3 mm if you push it. So I don't use it very often when I need tight control. If you are not hunting after flex, a steel nib can be every bit as good as a gold nib and in the example I gave even better. You will also find that asian nibs write finer than US/European nibs for the same quoted size. Plus nib sizes vary evan among manufacturers. Plus the ink and paper also play a part. I have many pens that put down a .4mm or thinner line on something like Rhodia but those same nibs and inks will write from .7mm to over 1mm on cheap copy paper. I use a steel needlepoint (.3 mm) for marking up things on cheap copy paper so that the resulting line is still small enough to be useful. But, some of the vintage gold nibs are intentionally made to NOT be flexible and those can still be useful. I have also found that vintage nibs write smaller than modern nibs with the same designation. As always, there are exceptions.

Edit: And as mentioned I have some very flexible vntage steel nibs as well.

[scrivelry]

I've got one vintage gold nib you could punch a hole through bone with.

[Silverbreeze]

Lol, guys I am comparing the merits of getting a gold Masuyama needlepoint vs a gold Masuyama or Grey Medium Italic.

Though the debate is fun
:-)

[AltecGreen]

Lol, guys I am comparing the merits of getting a gold Masuyama needlepoint vs a gold Masuyama or Grey Medium Italic.

Though the debate is fun
:-)

This is not quite the question you originally posed.

For this question there is no right answer. It would help if we understood what your goals are since a needlepoint and a medium italic are quite different things.

[Silverbreeze]

Lol, guys I am comparing the merits of getting a gold Masuyama needlepoint vs a gold Masuyama or Grey Medium Italic.

Though the debate is fun
:-)

This is not quite the question you originally posed.

For this question there is no right answer. It would help if we understood what your goals are since a needlepoint and a medium italic are quite different things.

I think my original post was asking about Needlepoint type nibs Steel vs Gold. And I was specifically asking for accounting type uses. Fine printing and numbering.

I just wanted to confirm I am considering modern new nibs as ground by Masuyama, B. Grey, R. Binder and G. Minuskin. Not Viintage gold nibs.

Sorry for being scatterbrained :-)

[AndyT]

I can't help wondering if anything is going to work significantly better for that application than a Pilot Penmanship, regardless of price. Better looking is a different matter entirely!

[Silverbreeze]

I can't help wondering if anything is going to work significantly better for that application than a Pilot Penmanship, regardless of price. Better looking is a different matter entirely!

I am using a Masuyama Needlepoint steel nib very happily in my case. I was/am curious if I understood what I read about gold nibs at such a fine point correctly. Mostly because if I do understand correctly. In my use case, there is no reason to spend for the gold version on the second pen

[Lady Onogaro]

I can't help wondering if anything is going to work significantly better for that application than a Pilot Penmanship, regardless of price. Better looking is a different matter entirely!

I am just chiming in here because I agree with Andy that the best pen I have found for very tiny precise writing (numbers, grades in tiny boxes, etc.) has also been the Pilot Penmanship. I have also found that even on Moleskine paper, it does not bleed through if you are using a Pilot Blue cartridge in the pen.

[raging.dragon]

Wandering a bit off topic, an EF nib from Pilot/Namiki, Platinum/Nakaya or Sailor, a Pilot PO (posting) nib, a Platinum/Nakaya UEF nib, or a Sailor Saibi-Togi nib should make a great modern accountant nib. All are firm needlepoints with very little flex.

[Lady Onogaro]

Raging Dragon makes a good point. The EF nib on my Pilot Prera is also good on papers that tend to bleed through or feather with other pens. I like to write out birthday cards and the like with a fountain pen, and the one I generally use is the Prera because I seldom see much feathering with that pen. I am wondering if the Sailor Clear Candy or the Pilot Kakuno Fine Point might not also be a very good (inexpensive) alternative for accounting work.

Of course, I am sure we can all use a good reason to buy that Franklin-Christoph Smoke and Ice pen with the Masayuma nib.

[KBeezie]

Guess it depends on what your definition of ultra-fine is, for people used to western fine/ef, the Pilot and especially Platinum Fine and EF are pretty much there.

On this write sample I did earlier this month of my inked pens, at top I have:

http://static.karlblessing.com/paper.../n16_may15.jpg

The Pilot Elite "Big Cap" (a Korean made pocket pen with a steel EF nib, but has a little bit of spring to it),
Pilot Metropolitan with a Fine Nib (pretty close to my western EFs)
The Platinum PTL-5000 with a 14K Gold EF nib and some spring/softness to it (I don't think it was ever intended as flex), probably the thinnest nib I have.
Sheaffer Touchdown Admiral with a Feathertouch Accounting nib, about as fine as the Platinum PTL-5000, also 14K Gold but with platinum coating
And my Montblanc 225 with a "fine" nib though it seems more like a Japanese Extra-Fine, 14K gold, platinum coated, and my smoothest nib in the Jpn EF range

I've never tried the Pilot Penmanship, but it seems like that would produce a line almost as thing as the PTL-5000 I have.

PS: I've re-inked the Platinum with Tsutsuji, pic of it here next to a write sample which appears thinner than the lubricated black eel. http://static.karlblessing.com/pens/...e/tsutsuji.jpg

PS #2 : On the Japanese front, the Big 3 tend to be Platinum -> Pilot -> Sailor, in order of how large their nib sizes run. Meaning Sailor's "Fine" Tends to be on the large side of the Japanese standard, where as Platinum is the smallest. I only have two Platinum pens (PTL-5000 and Century 3776 with a Soft Fine), but they do run smaller than the equivalent Pilots I have (Metropolitan F&M, Elite(K) Steel EF, 78G M&BStub, Falcon w/ Soft Fine). But at the same time the Platinums seem a little scratchier at the same size compared to the Pilot.

[dneal]

Lol, guys I am comparing the merits of getting a gold Masuyama needlepoint vs a gold Masuyama or Grey Medium Italic.

Though the debate is fun
:-)

I have a gold Masuyama needlepoint. It writes very, very, very fine without any flex/line variation (you're not going to do spencerian with it). I don't think it will matter if it's gold or steel.