Banned From FPN?

[Sailor Kenshin]

I resemble that!

[HughC]

HughC, I understand what you mean regarding ethical issues, but that is still an imposed construct in the context of private forums.

Essentially my point is that the owner sets the rules. They can set them however they see fit. There is no ethical imperative apart from their own personally held standards. What a prospective member thinks of this is largely irrelevant - from a purely argument-based perspective - unless the owner is open to constructive criticism. Once again there is no imperative for this.

I realise that the above scenario is not ideal and often unpleasant, but it does represent the bare bones of the situation, in my opinion. I don't like it, and by and large most sensible forums do not run afoul of it too often. If they did there would be nobody in them! On the other hand there are a lot of forums with wildly different standards, and they are scary places indeeed.

As an example, I expect you to respond sensibly and politely to my discussion of these points. You, however, may feel that it is appropriate to take a different approach to what I expect. Who is right?

I do find it all interesting, but that is probably because, in the main, I do not get caught up in all the controversies myself, and I am smart enough to double-check most of the information I find if I feel it necessary to do so.

As I said, not an ideal scenario, but a real one.

best,

Cryptos

Hi Cryptos,

Basically what you say is correct but it also has to run within the legislative framework that applies to where the server is located and, in this case, the country where the FPN is incorporated. While most think of the FPN as a privately owned pen lovers forum it's now a business that charges fees, this creates a very different situation and may introduce "consumer rights" as well as the legal responsibilities that come with incorporation. While the FPN can tell people to leave in any fashion they like ( reasonable or otherwise!!) they can't legally (dependent on jurisdiction) misrepresent the truth, make false statements about people or cause financial loss by inappropriate actions....of course the cost of doing anything means that from a practical point they can!!. I would consider the recent CS Forum posts made by FPN representatives ( and therefor FPN Inc.) to possibly breach several albeit in a very minor fashion.

I think you have every right to expect me to respond in a civilized manner, do do so in a rude or abusive fashion would be out of the context of our posts.

Regards
Hugh

[Empty_of_Clouds]

Hugh, thank you. There was information in your post that I was not cognizant of - particularly in regards to the business aspect. That does indeed change things. quite a bit. I will revise my view of the situation with this in mind.

[raging.dragon]

Hi Cryptos,

Basically what you say is correct but it also has to run within the legislative framework that applies to where the server is located and, in this case, the country where the FPN is incorporated. While most think of the FPN as a privately owned pen lovers forum it's now a business that charges fees, this creates a very different situation and may introduce "consumer rights" as well as the legal responsibilities that come with incorporation. While the FPN can tell people to leave in any fashion they like ( reasonable or otherwise!!) they can't legally (dependent on jurisdiction) misrepresent the truth, make false statements about people or cause financial loss by inappropriate actions....of course the cost of doing anything means that from a practical point they can!!. I would consider the recent CS Forum posts made by FPN representatives ( and therefor FPN Inc.) to possibly breach several albeit in a very minor fashion.

I think you have every right to expect me to respond in a civilized manner, do do so in a rude or abusive fashion would be out of the context of our posts.

Regards
Hugh

I'm not a lawyer, but I think you're grasping at straws with the legalistic arguments.

Consumer rights generally apply to people who buy something. I don't think it's a good assumption that they'd apply to non-paying members. In any case, to create an FPN account one must agree to follow the FPN rules, thus I don't see how enforcing those rules would violate consumer protection laws.

The legal responsibilities that come with incorporation mostly involve financial reporting.

Making false and damaging statements would fall under slander laws, and those would apply whether or not FPN is a corporation; furthermore, they would also apply to anyone posting on any website. For example, the allegations of conflict of interest are potentially slanderous.

Wishing that FPN's rules were illegal, doesn't make it so.

Ultimately, arguing that FPN's rules ought to be different is futile. Wim owns FPN and can set the rules and choose the moderators as he sees fit. If one cannot tolerate the Wim, the moderators, and/or the rules, the only practical recourse is to avoid FPN.

[HughC]

Hi Cryptos,

Basically what you say is correct but it also has to run within the legislative framework that applies to where the server is located and, in this case, the country where the FPN is incorporated. While most think of the FPN as a privately owned pen lovers forum it's now a business that charges fees, this creates a very different situation and may introduce "consumer rights" as well as the legal responsibilities that come with incorporation. While the FPN can tell people to leave in any fashion they like ( reasonable or otherwise!!) they can't legally (dependent on jurisdiction) misrepresent the truth, make false statements about people or cause financial loss by inappropriate actions....of course the cost of doing anything means that from a practical point they can!!. I would consider the recent CS Forum posts made by FPN representatives ( and therefor FPN Inc.) to possibly breach several albeit in a very minor fashion.

I think you have every right to expect me to respond in a civilized manner, do do so in a rude or abusive fashion would be out of the context of our posts.

Regards
Hugh

I'm not a lawyer, but I think you're grasping at straws with the legalistic arguments.

Consumer rights generally apply to people who buy something. I don't think it's a good assumption that they'd apply to non-paying members. In any case, to create an FPN account one must agree to follow the FPN rules, thus I don't see how enforcing those rules would violate consumer protection laws.

The legal responsibilities that come with incorporation mostly involve financial reporting.

Making false and damaging statements would fall under slander laws, and those would apply whether or not FPN is a corporation; furthermore, they would also apply to anyone posting on any website. For example, the allegations of conflict of interest are potentially slanderous.

Wishing that FPN's rules were illegal, doesn't make it so.

Ultimately, arguing that FPN's rules ought to be different is futile. Wim owns FPN and can set the rules and choose the moderators as he sees fit. If one cannot tolerate the Wim, the moderators, and/or the rules, the only practical recourse is to avoid FPN.

Wouldn't expect anything else from one of the FPN CS rah rah boys...and mostly wrong as well.

"Consumer rights generally apply to people who buy something"...haven't you noticed sellers pay to list and membership allows access to the "marketplace"....do I have to again point out the commercial nature of the FPN now? Yes, I probably do...sellers pay because they have an expectation that FPN will generate sales through it's membership base which means members are considered as potential customers by the board and sellers ( otherwise it would be a pointless exercise).....do I need to say more?

COI is a simple issue, the facts of MBs and CSs involvement over the years aren't known to me but that it was primarily used to advertise "new" CS product points to a financial relationship, a question I've asked of MB several times with no answer. Did MB ever disclose her part ownership of CS parent company ( after it was acquired for substantially less than value....) ? If there was a financial arrangement the lack of disclosure is of concern. Technically probably no COI existed, from a practical point her moderation of the forum was appalling and that this was considered COI by many understandable and ,again, from a practical view correct especially with regard to CS proper. Nothing matches "RichardandTracy" trying to claim that a part owner running a forum featuring their products does it for "nothing"...who was he trying to kid!!...it's not hard to see who benefits is it?...this in itself enforces a possible COI (what to look like a fool, this is a great example)

Incorporation makes a big difference...an individual is generally responsible for his/her comments on an internet forum which allows some freedom of speech without the board (owners) being legally responsible for what is posted. Become incorporated and employ moderators ( whether paid or not) and then the board (owners) assume responsibility for their posts...by virtue of it no longer being a "hobby" board....and therefor the legality of their actions. Incorporation also provides benefits to the owner if "things go wrong"....the FPN was incorporated to benefit on person, Wim Geeraets, make no mistake about that.

Again read what I wrote ..."possibly breach "..is different to "Wishing that FPN's rules were illegal". Trying to misquote what I wrote to suit you view is rather poor form.

And on the last, gee we can say Kim Jong Um owns N.Korea (which in reality he does ) so what he does is perfectly okay because he makes the rules and we all just should accept it...of course we can all just avoid N.Korea...

[Chrissy]

On a more serious note you really do have to seriously annoy someone over there to attract "punitive action" and then it's a generally a warning first.

Regards
Hugh

You couldn't be more wrong. Punitive action is arbitrary, inconsistent, at the whim of individual moderators and often without much of a warning. I am talking from experience. And no, it isn't sour grapes, as many FPN friends will attest.

I can attest that this is the truth

[AtomicLeo]

I was actually kind of inviting some new stories, because, if they really treat their members that poorly, I may delete my account. And I think someone said that something about ''on Noodler's payroll'' and I wanted to emphasize his personal contributions, and to make sure no one was actually assuming that Noodler's pays people to create propaganda for the brand. I agree completely that moderators are a bit unreasonable. I just thought maybe there were others like me who would benefit a detailed example. I'm in High School, and therefore have learned never to just go with the crowd, or you end up looking like an ass. If you really want my ''point'' on this post, it was to provide information to an individual, and to represent a group of which the size is unknown, the ignorant ones of the bunch (me included).

The "payroll" comment was me and after reading it again I see I was being quite flippant, but I stand by the comments about favoritism and there are plenty of examples of this not just Noodler's. The CS forum seems to continue to be a hot mess of mods out of control. My local pen club has several members that used to sell on the forum and most have stopped because they are small time sellers and the mods treated them terribly. One comment I heard was "It's like paying protection money to the mafia." I do not have screen shots or any other proof of what happened, but I trust these people and after seeing the way some of Noodler pen threads were handled, I believe them.

They are the ones that run things and they get to make the rules. I didn't like the rules, so I moved over here and have really enjoyed the interactions. I like how the mods let the community police itself. I do miss the classified section. I wish there was a similar service on another forum, but I refuse to support FPN by buying there. That's my choice.

[mhosea]

The "payroll" comment was me and after reading it again I see I was being quite flippant, but I stand by the comments about favoritism and there are plenty of examples of this not just Noodler's.

Are you sure this is favoritism as such? Or is it more a matter of shutting down criticism of any company that crosses some arbitrary (and perhaps inconsistently measured and applied) threshold? Clearly FPN is not the site to criticize a manufacturer. I sense that one needs to stay very focused on specific products and refrain from broad-brushed criticism, or you may attract moderator attention.

[oldstoat]

In other words, open debate is not acceptable. I have a few CS pens; the modern ones are worthy of criticism. Doing so on FPN gets you banned.

I have some sympathy for the "my site, my rules " approach, because there are enough dickheads and trolls out there to make life a pain for everybody otherwise...........but if there are rules they need to be public, consistent and unbiased. Otherwise it's a bunch of bullies and their sycophants. As an ex FPN person, that's how it became a couple of years ago. I've looked at the Mary Burke leaving CS thread and it is obvious that things are no better over there.

Well, sod 'em. I'm happy here

[mhosea]

In other words, open debate is not acceptable.

Yes, but that's more like a corollary than a rephrasing. My point is that I don't think they've so much picked favorites as decided on authoritarian control of any "negative energy" that might arise. As such, almost any company might be the beneficiary of that, not just some particular "favorites". I did drop in on the CS forum awhile back, and I saw some of what you're talking about. I like the FPN repair forum, though.

[top pen]

In other words, open debate is not acceptable. I have a few CS pens; the modern ones are worthy of criticism. Doing so on FPN gets you banned.

I have some sympathy for the "my site, my rules " approach, because there are enough dickheads and trolls out there to make life a pain for everybody otherwise...........but if there are rules they need to be public, consistent and unbiased. Otherwise it's a bunch of bullies and their sycophants. As an ex FPN person, that's how it became a couple of years ago. I've looked at the Mary Burke leaving CS thread and it is obvious that things are no better over there.

Well, sod 'em. I'm happy here

Ouch! After reading that I'm properly put off FPN.

[Spikey Mike]

I find FPN invaluable as a resource ... have never had a problem with anyone over there and have always been treated just fine. On a personal level, to me it's just a pen forum for pen people to share their knowledge, ideas and views and if some of them don't agree with me it's not the end of the world is it? As for bullying - it's never happened to me and I don't actually see any more of anything going on that doesn't happen on any other forum that I drop in on, in fact, FPN is probably one of the tamer forums I use!

I'm happy to use FPN and here ... there doesn't seem to be a great deal of difference between the two and it appears that, like myself, there are a number of people (or at least user-names) that appear regularly on both forums.

Live and let live ....

[Jon Szanto]

I find FPN invaluable as a resource ... have never had a problem with anyone over there and have always been treated just fine. On a personal level, to me it's just a pen forum for pen people to share their knowledge, ideas and views and if some of them don't agree with me it's not the end of the world is it? As for bullying - it's never happened to me and I don't actually see any more of anything going on that doesn't happen on any other forum that I drop in on, in fact, FPN is probably one of the tamer forums I use!

I'm happy to use FPN and here ... there doesn't seem to be a great deal of difference between the two and it appears that, like myself, there are a number of people (or at least user-names) that appear regularly on both forums.

Live and let live ....

Well, that is really great. We (I) are happy for you.

The underlying point, however, is that your view of it may just not be incisive enough, and the fact of the matter is that some very decent, honest, and well-behaved people have been treated more than unkindly there. That YOU have had a smooth sailing of things is quite fine; what bothers me is that people I like, admire, and learn from have been treated like shit.

That doesn't fly in my book, and I don't mind it being discussed.

[KBeezie]

Well, that is really great. We (I) are happy for you.

The underlying point, however, is that your view of it may just not be incisive enough, and the fact of the matter is that some very decent, honest, and well-behaved people have been treated more than unkindly there. That YOU have had a smooth sailing of things is quite fine; what bothers me is that people I like, admire, and learn from have been treated like shit.

That doesn't fly in my book, and I don't mind it being discussed.

It mostly seems to happen if you question or otherwise engage clarifying discussion with some of their older more 'established' members who may also be vendors/etc there. Apparently it looks bad if they make a mistake or have challenged information. (Because apparently they're the established experts... they could never be wrong...)

[migo984]

My experience, for what it's worth:

I queried, in open forum, whether a very clumsy and unnecessary intervention by a Mod in the PIF thread, which completely soured the feel-good factor of the thread at that time, was the appropriate thing to do. I did it politely; I'm never rude. I was told by the Mod that they had had a "lot of complaints" about the PIF thread going off-topic. So I just expressed an opinion that a bit of thread drift, and chat in the PIF thread, seemed perfectly acceptable, given that PIFs are completely member-driven and reliant on members' goodwill. I asked, again politely, for the numbers of complainants (not names, just numbers) and was basically told to mind my own business and that I would be suspended for challenging, & arguing with, a Mod!

[Actually I asked for the numbers as I have my suspicions about who complained and the reasons for that complaint. The Mod was so defensive and aggressive that it confirmed to me that my suspicions were correct].

Apparently the Mod's word is "law" and it is against the "law" to query a Mod, so I was suspended from posting as a result of my "challenge". And I was left in limbo like that, with neither the Admin nor Mod responding to any of my PMs asking for information on the period of my suspension. I was ignored for over 2 months (altho I acknowledge that Wim was quite ill for part of that time). The Mod who suspended me has never bothered to reply to me.

What amazed me was that when Wim did reply to my PMs he said that he had to get agreement "from ALL the FPN mods" to my reinstatement. Wow! It's like a politburo!

And incredibly, at the time of my suspension I had an ongoing PIF of a brand new Parson's Essential Cursive Italic pen. The Mod who suspended me expressed surprise when I withdrew my PIF! Clueless!
I completed my PIF privately afterwards, outside FPN, but it was a sad conclusion to my PIFing on FPN.

[top pen]

My experience, for what it's worth:

I queried, in open forum, whether a very clumsy and unnecessary intervention by a Mod in the PIF thread, which completely soured the feel-good factor of the thread at that time, was the appropriate thing to do. I did it politely; I'm never rude. I was told by the Mod that they had had a "lot of complaints" about the PIF thread going off-topic. So I just expressed an opinion that a bit of thread drift, and chat in the PIF thread, seemed perfectly acceptable, given that PIFs are completely member-driven and reliant on members' goodwill. I asked, again politely, for the numbers of complainants (not names, just numbers) and was basically told to mind my own business and that I would be suspended for challenging, & arguing with, a Mod!

[Actually I asked for the numbers as I have my suspicions about who complained and the reasons for that complaint. The Mod was so defensive and aggressive that it confirmed to me that my suspicions were correct].

Apparently the Mod's word is "law" and it is against the "law" to query a Mod, so I was suspended from posting as a result of my "challenge". And I was left in limbo like that, with neither the Admin nor Mod responding to any of my PMs asking for information on the period of my suspension. I was ignored for over 2 months (altho I acknowledge that Wim was quite ill for part of that time). The Mod who suspended me has never bothered to reply to me.

What amazed me was that when Wim did reply to my PMs he said that he had to get agreement "from ALL the FPN mods" to my reinstatement. Wow! It's like a politburo!

And incredibly, at the time of my suspension I had an ongoing PIF of a brand new Parson's Essential Cursive Italic pen. The Mod who suspended me expressed surprise when I withdrew my PIF! Clueless!
I completed my PIF privately afterwards, outside FPN, but it was a sad conclusion to my PIFing on FPN.

That really annoyed me when I saw it. I mean I don't see the problem with congratulating those who offer items others and yes it may take a little longer to read through it however those give should be recognized for there generosity. Even if some people are annoyed having to read through several posts to get to the next offering, I think it's a bit lazy and single minded of them focusing only applying for the next PIF rather then reconsigning the generosity of others.
I always thought discussion was welcomed however it seems not also I think it is more that one moderator, as I've been in contact with the other one and he seems very fair and decent.

[HughC]

We remain amazed at how many examples of poor experiences on FPN arise !! Still even we are prepared to say it does have a lot to offer and a lot seem to have few, if any, problems. For some it will work well, for others it won't so really it's matter of trying it out. What we find difficult is that there are a number of very good mods who are being tarnished by a few very poor ones. It is very poor management, still we note Harlequin ( who had a rather serious allegation against him iirc) has been shown the door so changes do occur even if slowly...on that at least my dear friend Wim has done something constructive...now all he has to do is treat people with respect and dignity..lol

Warm Regards
Hugh

[Spikey Mike]

I find FPN invaluable as a resource ... have never had a problem with anyone over there and have always been treated just fine. On a personal level, to me it's just a pen forum for pen people to share their knowledge, ideas and views and if some of them don't agree with me it's not the end of the world is it? As for bullying - it's never happened to me and I don't actually see any more of anything going on that doesn't happen on any other forum that I drop in on, in fact, FPN is probably one of the tamer forums I use!

I'm happy to use FPN and here ... there doesn't seem to be a great deal of difference between the two and it appears that, like myself, there are a number of people (or at least user-names) that appear regularly on both forums.

Live and let live ....

Well, that is really great. We (I) are happy for you.

The underlying point, however, is that your view of it may just not be incisive enough, and the fact of the matter is that some very decent, honest, and well-behaved people have been treated more than unkindly there. That YOU have had a smooth sailing of things is quite fine; what bothers me is that people I like, admire, and learn from have been treated like shit.

That doesn't fly in my book, and I don't mind it being discussed.

Ummm ... am I to assume that only replies agreeing with you are "incisive" enough then?

The fact is that yes, a few people may have been treated badly there, the same as I'm pretty sure that some people have felt that they got badly treated here ... that is the nature of internet forums ... but, in reality the vast majority of members on both sites manage to get through most days with out being mauled in either forum.

My personal opinion is not designed to inflame any one nor do I have any personal agenda, I'm just someone who uses both forums quite happily and as yet have not had a problem with either. If, by making up my own opinion of either forum, makes my view less then incisive to you it would appear to me that perhaps you are far more similar to the people that you are trying to put down then you actually imagine yourself to be?

Now, do I get mauled here for not having a problem with either site? To get on with certain people here do I need to join the anti-FPN club? Will I get banned from here for having my own opinion?

It'll be interesting to see ...

[migo984]

Will I get banned from here for having my own opinion?

I think that precisely crystallises the difference between the two forums.

[Spikey Mike]

It could still happen!

... maybe perhaps just a little mauling for daring to go against the grain ... anyone?