Public Domain Pen Documents Now Online

[kirchh]

I don't know of anyone that gets banned from pen shows for their online antics. I was a little curious on how that was going to work out for Rick. People get banned from shows that cause difficulties with the hotel, typically. No one is currently nor foresee-ably banned from the Chicago Pen Show.

Roger E. Wooten
Chicago Pen Show
Business Manager

Roger,

Work makes travel during the show season almost impossible but I shall ask just in case.

My favorite baseball team is always playing the Cubs. Am I still allowed in?

Todd

Todd;

I'm from down State - I don't even like the Cubs. You're in.

Roger W.

So a Met fan would not pose a problem, then?

--Daniel

[david i]

I was playing a bit online.

I was pleasantly amazed.

Did a Google search for Fountain pen catalog download

This turned up.

#2 on all Google after a couple weeks.

The word gets out. A blessing, no doubt.

More outreach in a a few weeks than in the last 20 years?




regards

david

[Roger W.]

I don't know of anyone that gets banned from pen shows for their online antics. I was a little curious on how that was going to work out for Rick. People get banned from shows that cause difficulties with the hotel, typically. No one is currently nor foresee-ably banned from the Chicago Pen Show.

Roger E. Wooten
Chicago Pen Show
Business Manager

Roger,

Work makes travel during the show season almost impossible but I shall ask just in case.

My favorite baseball team is always playing the Cubs. Am I still allowed in?

Todd

Todd;

I'm from down State - I don't even like the Cubs. You're in.

Roger W.

So a Met fan would not pose a problem, then?

--Daniel

Daniel;

Mets, sure, OK by me.

Roger

Just so everyone knows by the time you hit central Illinois you start getting a lot of Cardinal fans.

[kirchh]

I don't know of anyone that gets banned from pen shows for their online antics. I was a little curious on how that was going to work out for Rick. People get banned from shows that cause difficulties with the hotel, typically. No one is currently nor foresee-ably banned from the Chicago Pen Show.

Roger E. Wooten
Chicago Pen Show
Business Manager

Roger,

Work makes travel during the show season almost impossible but I shall ask just in case.

My favorite baseball team is always playing the Cubs. Am I still allowed in?

Todd

Todd;

I'm from down State - I don't even like the Cubs. You're in.

Roger W.

So a Met fan would not pose a problem, then?

--Daniel

Daniel;

Mets, sure, OK by me.

Roger

Just so everyone knows by the time you hit central Illinois you start getting a lot of Cardinal fans.

No problem -- Cardinal fans are legendary for their hospitality to visiting teams' fans. Hard not to like the Cards.

--Daniel

[Hawk]

Where is Central Illinois? If Southern Illinois is considered south of I-80, there isn't much room for Central Illinois. Cardinal fans, I'm guessing reach to north Champaign-Bloomington line, certainly as far as Springfield. BTW, I'm not a sports fan of any kind, just trying to learn Illinois geography.

[Roger W.]

Decatur (Mt. Zion) is about as geographically in the center of the State as you can get I figure. Now we are Bears fans as the Bears came from Decatur to start with.

Roger W.

[kirchh]

And I just realized that Cardinal is, of course, also a pen color.

Any other sports teams with pen associations? Pelicans, I suppose...

--Daniel

[david i]

A very casual FPB contributor offered this observation on Aug 5, 2014

Andrew:

Well, this thread is a nice reminder that no good deed goes unpunished. A "Hey look what I found everyone!" degenerated into accusations. Lots of talk about community and supporting it, but not a whole lot of acting like one.

Thank you Mr. Armstrong, I appreciate you sharing that you found these!

I wish those so closely involved with the PCA would have handled this better and shaped the conversation around "Oh yeah, those are from the PCA library, awesome aren't they? I wonder how they got on archive? Did someone try to protect their download and put it on the wrong site, or the original scanner drop them out there for something? Odd... Anyway, we've got a whole lot more!"

Good will goes a long way, and knowing several people involved in this conversation I know everyone is capable of it. We can choose what kind of community we want to be around our hobby, threads like this are not constructive. Great conversation around legalities and ethics, but not always productive in terms of building community and a sense of connection between each other.

At any rate, I'm glad to see this material out there, I hope the PCA has a good exit strategy to open up all these files to the world so they do not get lost should it ever come to and end, and it was nice to get a glimpse into things.

Somewhat prescient.

More Google commentary tomorrow.

600 item vintage pen and repair catalogue download, free to any and all collectors.

regards

-david

[Jon Szanto]

[david i]

Let's keep those opinions coming, boys

600 item vintage pen and repair catalogue download, free to any and all collectors.


Google stuff to be offered later. I'm off to some open houses today.

-d

[Empty_of_Clouds]

[david i]

Let's keep those opinions coming, boys

600 item vintage pen and repair catalogue download, free to any and all collectors.


Google stuff to be offered later. I'm off to some open houses today.

-d

[david i]

Hey, I added tags for pen catalog download. Soon this thread along will the Vacumania site will be dominant on all google for Downloads of pen catalogs. Can we get to 100 pages?

One thing though is missing on Google's first ten pages for fountain pen catalog downloads...

regards

david

[Empty_of_Clouds]

[pajaro]

After reading this stuff, I am wondering if, now that the public domain material scanned into an archive by the PCA has been put onto a public archive, what now? Does the PCA material have to be taken down from wherever it was posted to, or is that genie out of the bottle?

Having been involved for years in capturing scanned data and putting it into electronic archives, I appreciate that there is cost involved. If you have a gate to the material, like having to be a PCA member to gain access, I can appreciate that they are trying to recover the cost. When the material is copied to another archive, what then? It seems like the material could be copied then by anyone until and unless PCA can make the other archive remove the copied material.

Can they make the other archive remove the material?

I am not sure how I regard the PCA. I have seen some nice pics of some of their articles. I don't think I care enough about fountain pens any more to actually pay anything much for more info. Watching you guys trying to maim each other in the BS arena is sufficiently amusing.

[mhosea]

If I might make a suggestion...

The optimal course of action if you are opposed to the continuance of this thread is to let David say what he wants unhindered. It is because it will continue in any case, and the only question to be answered is how much attention it will get before he is done. Everything everybody has done publicly to oppose it has had the opposite of its intended effect, not to mention some unnecessarily negative side effects.

I was offended enough by Jon Veley's groundless accusations toward Paul Erano (and to David himself), and dissatisfied enough with his "I'm sorry you felt that way" sort of apology, that I cannot muster a sense of injustice in David replaying the year-old thread. I say this without endorsing the effort, quite the contrary, but my opinion on whether it should be done is irrelevant. Speaking of my irrelevant opinions, I also found Daniel's contribution on the subject interesting and illuminating, and I specifically recall him conceding that there was nothing to be done in this case legally, so I do not quite understand the taunting David has sent his way.

I would also add that I have amended my previous reply in which I suggested that the PCA would be at risk of hypocrisy going forward, considering their goals of having a comprehensive library, the likelihood that some new public domain documents would appear elsewhere first, and that permission from the person who scanned the public domain documents was irrelevant. Making the public-domain portion of the PCA's library open to the public deals with this issue nicely.

[david i]

Let's keep those opinions coming, boys

600 item vintage pen and repair catalogue download, free to any and all collectors.



-d

[david i]

After reading this stuff, I am wondering if, now that the public domain material scanned into an archive by the PCA has been put onto a public archive, what now? Does the PCA material have to be taken down from wherever it was posted to, or is that genie out of the bottle?

Having been involved for years in capturing scanned data and putting it into electronic archives, I appreciate that there is cost involved. If you have a gate to the material, like having to be a PCA member to gain access, I can appreciate that they are trying to recover the cost. When the material is copied to another archive, what then? It seems like the material could be copied then by anyone until and unless PCA can make the other archive remove the copied material.

Can they make the other archive remove the material?

I am not sure how I regard the PCA. I have seen some nice pics of some of their articles. I don't think I care enough about fountain pens any more to actually pay anything much for more info. Watching you guys trying to maim each other in the BS arena is sufficiently amusing.

Hi Pajaro.

Nothing has to be taken down.

Public domain scans may be hosted at innumerable locations. PCA certainly is welcome to maintain such information at its website, and of course has my blessing to do so. If the PCA wants to give up on it, as the downloading (at least when I last looked about a year ago) is well more hassle-filled than at the Vacumania link or perhaps at Archive.org (is it there?), I would certainly understand.

And, yes, the "arena" nature of conversation here only adds to the charm.

regards

David

[david i]

If I might make a suggestion...

The optimal course of action if you are opposed to the continuance of this thread is to let David say what he wants unhindered. It is because it will continue in any case, and the only question to be answered is how much attention it will get before he is done. Everything everybody has done publicly to oppose it has had the opposite of its intended effect, not to mention some unnecessarily negative side effects.

I was offended enough by Jon Veley's groundless accusations toward Paul Erano (and to David himself), and dissatisfied enough with his "I'm sorry you felt that way" sort of apology, that I cannot muster a sense of injustice in David replaying the year-old thread. I say this without endorsing the effort, quite the contrary, but my opinion on whether it should be done is irrelevant. Speaking of my irrelevant opinions, I also found Daniel's contribution on the subject interesting and illuminating, and I specifically recall him conceding that there was nothing to be done in this case legally, so I do not quite understand the taunting David has sent his way.

I would also add that I have amended my previous reply in which I suggested that the PCA would be at risk of hypocrisy going forward, considering their goals of having a comprehensive library, the likelihood that some new public domain documents would appear elsewhere first, and that permission from the person who scanned the public domain documents was irrelevant. Making the public-domain portion of the PCA's library open to the public deals with this issue nicely.

I agree- mostly- with Mike's perspective.

I am burdened by a moral obligation to pursue the historical discussion I've been releasing, just as I would feel an obligation to use my medical skills at a pen show to attempt a resuscitation on a person there should one happen to... stop. It has happened.

But, I beg you, puuuuuhleeeeze don't discourage all the counterpoints, ranting, thunder-and-smoke and mindless flak offered in response here.

Those be the parts that keep it fun for me.

Even real and courteous discussion such as Pajaro's is appreciated.


regards

david

[david i]

We're getting close to where Jon Veley got home from work. Save for his commentary, most of us politely were exploring the theory, ethics, legality of scanning/sharing public domain works. It wasn't personal. I had excerpted Hugh's comments and offered response.

This still was early August 2014


Hugh:

SNIP The ethical aspect is overplayed because in all likelyhood the PCA obtained these by simply coping them, to imply that no one else can copy them is incorrect. Clearly from a PCA perspective it would preferable for them to be able to make a few $ to cover their costs but the ethics of turning it into a profit making exercise could also be questioned. It's just one of those issues that is clouded by personal opinions on if it's "right" or "wrong", I can understand some PCA members being a bit unhappy but that's about as far it should go. I think David Nishimura summed it up very well in post no. 6 with "So please, if you think digitization of rare pen reference material is a good thing, support the organization that is putting the effort into doing it." .....the logical thing to do!!

SNIP

Regards

Hugh

David I:

I've found this discussion most engaging, but just to clarify what I believe is the "sweat of the brow" issue that leads to moral (if not successful legal) objections in this chat, I note that even those who complain about (vs relish) the appearance of pen catalogues at archive.org are not complaining because someone besides the PCA copied/digitized useful old pen information, but because they appear to have taken copies that actually were created by/for the PCA and simply passed the material to a different hosting site. Particularly for people like Bill Acker and Roger Wooten and possibly John Jenkins who apparently have put in extra effort to clean up the raw images, not to mention having worked to secure hard-to-find material in the first place, there can be a quite natural, "I did all this work for a given cause, and someone else just took it".

regards

David